Hot Tub pricing?? or lack there of..

[dropdtop]

Being this is my first post let me introduce myself,,  My name is Brad and i am from NW indiana.  I will be purchasing my 2nd hot tub (hopefully).  My first hot tub was a Viking ETS II,,,  while definately not a high end spa. maybe not even a medium,,  It was the only model that fit perfectly in my sunroom of my last house.

Here we are some 5 years later and I have a new house begging for a new tub.  Me and my girl have narrowed it down to the Hot Spring Envoy which looks like a solid choice.  However I have only one dealer in my area and lets just say that have pissed me off a lil with poor sales tactics.  But the sales tactics seems to be the same no matter what other dealer I goto.

My main question is:  How do I know if i'm getting a good deal if i dont know what a good deal is??  I would like to know what exactly the Price is of a Hot Springs Envoy without a salesperson having to look into a black book and pull a number out of a hat that I'm supposed to be OK with?  its like someone telling me the 1995 Ford Escort is a good deal at $42,000 but if I buy today he'll take abother 500 off.

Where is the MSRP of these tubs listed?  Is Spastone a upcharge? is there a way to order direct?

Sorry if this seems like more of a rant then a question, but dealing with hot tub dealers is worse then buying a new car.

Thanks in advance,
Brad

[castletonia]

MSRP is irrelevant because a hot tub will never sell for that and not all company's have a realistic MSRP. 

There are many factors that dictate the price.  A hot tub only dealer likely will be higher priced than a dealer who may also sell pools or patio furniture in addition to hot tubs because they have other sources of income and can operate on lower margins.  Likewise a higher volume dealer may either get better pricing or just be more aggressive than a smaller dealer.  The part of the country also makes a difference.  Your dealer in Indiana is going to pay a lot more for shipping than a dealer in California but less than a dealer in New York.  The options the dealer includes (steps, coverlift, chemical ,etc) effect price.  Also, how competitive your market is also makes a difference. 

In a nutshell, your dealer determines how much they need to make to sustain business and whatever that number is is what you will pay.  I am in Wisconsin and I have seen quotes for the Envoy for as little as $10k and as much as $14k, depending on the options includes.  Within a 20 miles radius of my store I have Hot Spring, Caldera, Bullfrog, Master Spas, Artesian, Lazyboy, Hydropool, Jacuzzi, Viking, LA Spas, Nordic, Vita, and Maax in addition to Marquis that I sell.  Its competitive here.

Spastone will be an upcharge, but I am not a Hot Spring dealer so I cannot tell you how much, but my guess would be at least $500, probably closer to $1000.  Never seen a company sell direct to the customer, especially when there is a local dealer.

[The Wizard of Spas]

Thats about as perfect as a response to this question as possible, castletonia. 

You're likely to encounter this at every dealer, droptop.  I think that going forward you may see this form of selling start to diminish to where there is less, if any, negotiations.  Its how I prefer to sell and now I just have my sales team negotiate on floor models.  Personally, I believe that the back-and-forth way of bartering is antiquated.  However, I am only in my 30's and my generation isn't as used to that style of business.

So if you have to play the game, play it.  If they're going to make you work for it, turn the tables on them and make them work for it.  The longer you drag your feet the more they're going to come to their bottom dollar.  If they are not getting to the bottom dollar fast enough, lowball them and see where they come back at. 

I hope this helps.  Good luck moving forward.

[d00nut]

Spa Stone is an upcharge, generally speaking, probably $2000 if you are getting the spa stone steps too.

Can't buy direct, Watkins doesn't work that way.

Not all dealers are bad, but this industry does lag way behind others.  as Wizard stated, I think that this "old school" style of business will go away here in the next couple of years, but only time will tell.

Totally agree with Castletonia.  I'd go one step further and see how they fair with service after the fact.  I got a few dealers that will undercut me, but they outsource their service, so realistically they don't mind losing a few bucks since they never have to deal with you again.

I on the other hand actually give a crap about my customers, therefore I choose to pay and have technicians on staff. 

It's all relative. 

BTW, I own and Envoy, and it is an amazing hot tub.

[hottubdan]

All well said.  Brad, what are they asking for the Envoy?  Spa Stone not available for Envoy.  NXT is an option.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

Being this is my first post let me introduce myself,,  My name is Brad and i am from NW indiana.  I will be purchasing my 2nd hot tub (hopefully).  My first hot tub was a Viking ETS II,,,  while definately not a high end spa. maybe not even a medium,,  It was the only model that fit perfectly in my sunroom of my last house.

Here we are some 5 years later and I have a new house begging for a new tub.  Me and my girl have narrowed it down to the Hot Spring Envoy which looks like a solid choice.  However I have only one dealer in my area and lets just say that have pissed me off a lil with poor sales tactics.  But the sales tactics seems to be the same no matter what other dealer I goto.

My main question is:  How do I know if i'm getting a good deal if i dont know what a good deal is??  I would like to know what exactly the Price is of a Hot Springs Envoy without a salesperson having to look into a black book and pull a number out of a hat that I'm supposed to be OK with?  its like someone telling me the 1995 Ford Escort is a good deal at $42,000 but if I buy today he'll take abother 500 off.

Where is the MSRP of these tubs listed?  Is Spastone a upcharge? is there a way to order direct?

Sorry if this seems like more of a rant then a question, but dealing with hot tub dealers is worse then buying a new car.

Thanks in advance,
Brad

Have you even been to a well respected dealer yet? if so and they couldn't answer the basic questions you've asked here then you need to find a different dealer

[InHotWaterAgain]

Hi Brad,

I feel your pain. There is a lot of secrecy about pricing. Its a lot of money to spend, and comparison shopping is not usually available.
You could try emailing dealers around to get pricing.
I can tell you that I paid around $5800 for a Nordic Crown (taxes and extras included), and thought it was a fair price

[argilbertson]

i have had an even tougher time in Denver.  We have a 2nd home in the mountains.  Mountain dealer won't give prices in store, but want to meet you at the residence.  No pricing prior.  Sure, i somewhat get that as there are condos, difficult installs, etc.  But no pricing at all.  In Denver, i have a dealer emailing me with prices and wants us to come in.  I would rather get the tub from the mountain dealer as it's local, but i sent him a quote and he laughed....  It's just nuts.

[The Wizard of Spas]

Half of all decisions made should be with heavy emphasis on the dealer.  The tub is the most important as that is what you are purchasing.  But if you are not comfortable with the dealer then you already have your answer. 

I'd purchase from someone else and then send all of the other dealers who were sketchy with their business practices a nice note informing them that they were passed over from you spending ($X) amount of money simply b/c they wouldn't give you a price quote.

As a dealer I always want to know why I lost a sale.  If the same reasons pop up I know I have an issue.  However, I cannot stand hearing that they just didn't like me, as I go out of my way to be as accommodating and HONEST as possible.

Just my two cents.  Hope this helps.  Good luck moving forward.

[OldSchoolSwap]

Great post and feedback from all!!!

I have been working at a car dealership for a few years and understand the negotiating process very well...

However: Hot Tubs are completely an unexpected and frustrating process that turned me upside down and frankly don't even know how to start.

Unable to compare prices, therefore unable to compare features and benefits for the money.
Even MSRP's are hard to obtain for comparisons.

Went to a so called "Factory direct expo" hosted by Master Spas and was sold on a Twilight 7.2 for a "discounted" $8k from the so called list price of $14k.....

Needles to say, I cancelled the next day as I had not done any research on anything!

I feel your frustration, best thing I've done was sit back, read, read and keep reading.
Hopefully you'll find something that makes sense.
I sure haven't......

[Hot Tub Guru]

i have had an even tougher time in Denver.  We have a 2nd home in the mountains.  Mountain dealer won't give prices in store, but want to meet you at the residence.  No pricing prior.  Sure, i somewhat get that as there are condos, difficult installs, etc.  But no pricing at all.  In Denver, i have a dealer emailing me with prices and wants us to come in.  I would rather get the tub from the mountain dealer as it's local, but i sent him a quote and he laughed....  It's just nuts.

Have you already purchased a tub for your mountain home?  I own Heavenly Times Hot Tubs and sell Arctic Spas.  I give pricing over email if needed.  We do weekly service as well.  Please look us up! 

[Sam]

Part of the problem with giving out pricing before a customer even comes to your store is that it's not quite that simple.  Delivery access and location can affect the price.  Next, there are a lot of options.  Some dealers include steps, or cover lift, or ozone, etc.  Others don't.  This could easily be a difference of $1000. 

Also, if you provide a price without any explanation of the hot tub's design, features, warranty,etc, you are commoditizing a complicated product.  For example; Hot Spring Spas tend cost more than other brands with similar size and amount of jets.  If you just see that price, you will think that they are charging way too much.  What is possible though is that the Hot Spring jets are much better than the generic ones a master spa uses, for example.  The Hot Spring is more energy efficient.  It has a better warranty.  You get the picture.  Btw, I am not offiliated with H.S in any way.  Just using them as an example.

Or, maybe one dealer contracts out delivery and service to the lowest bidder while the other company has in house delivery and service that have a more vested interest in providing good service.  It may add a bit to the price but is likely worth it. 

Why would you spend more money for what looks like a comparable spa?  There needs to be some explanation of why the price difference.  The laymen customer has no way to compare hot tubs other than what they can easily see.  Number of jets, number of pumps, etc.  As many can attest, the number of pumps and jets is a terrible way to compare hot tubs.  I've seen spas with 40 jets that I would take without a doubt over some hot tubs with 110 jets.

As for MSRP, a lot of manufacturers don't even provide one.  Other's artificially inflate it so it looks like you are getting a great deal.  It really doesn't help much at all to have that number.

I'm not saying that our industry creates a great buying process by any means (some dealers are actually great though).  I'm just trying to shed light on some of the reasons it's a mess.  Hot tubs have nowhere near the market penetration of most household appliances, or cars.  Everybody knows that Honda is a very reliable car.  Most people have no clue that Artesian Spas are reliable or even who they are.  Or that Cal Spas (the company and their spas) have a terrible reputation.  They put a whole lot of bling and for comparatively low prices, but I imagine most industry guys would never even think of buying one.

[RedFalcon]

Part of the problem with giving out pricing before a customer even comes to your store is that it's not quite that simple.  Delivery access and location can affect the price.  Next, there are a lot of options.  Some dealers include steps, or cover lift, or ozone, etc.  Others don't.  This could easily be a difference of $1000. 

Also, if you provide a price without any explanation of the hot tub's design, features, warranty,etc, you are commoditizing a complicated product.  For example; Hot Spring Spas tend cost more than other brands with similar size and amount of jets.  If you just see that price, you will think that they are charging way too much.  What is possible though is that the Hot Spring jets are much better than the generic ones a master spa uses, for example.  The Hot Spring is more energy efficient.  It has a better warranty.  You get the picture.  Btw, I am not offiliated with H.S in any way.  Just using them as an example.

Or, maybe one dealer contracts out delivery and service to the lowest bidder while the other company has in house delivery and service that have a more vested interest in providing good service.  It may add a bit to the price but is likely worth it. 

Why would you spend more money for what looks like a comparable spa?  There needs to be some explanation of why the price difference.  The laymen customer has no way to compare hot tubs other than what they can easily see.  Number of jets, number of pumps, etc.  As many can attest, the number of pumps and jets is a terrible way to compare hot tubs.  I've seen spas with 40 jets that I would take without a doubt over some hot tubs with 110 jets.

As for MSRP, a lot of manufacturers don't even provide one.  Other's artificially inflate it so it looks like you are getting a great deal.  It really doesn't help much at all to have that number.

I'm not saying that our industry creates a great buying process by any means (some dealers are actually great though).  I'm just trying to shed light on some of the reasons it's a mess.  Hot tubs have nowhere near the market penetration of most household appliances, or cars.  Everybody knows that Honda is a very reliable car.  Most people have no clue that Artesian Spas are reliable or even who they are.  Or that Cal Spas (the company and their spas) have a terrible reputation.  They put a whole lot of bling and for comparatively low prices, but I imagine most industry guys would never even think of buying one.

...and yet I can price out a BMW with the options that I want (and may end up spending >$100K for) online and be very clear what I would be getting and what the recommended price would be (not necessarily what I would pay for it in the end).  The issue has to do with modern shoppers wanting to be fully informed, not just blindly throwing themselves on the mercy of a salesman.  You are certainly correct that tubs are a complicated product but that is all the more reason to help drive information transparency in the industry, allow potential customers to educate themselves and the stop "what is it going to take to get you in one of my tubs today?" tactics (not implying that you necessarily do that).

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Number of cars (a virtual necessity) sold in the US in 2017 :  7.7 million
Number of hot tubs (a luxury item of which so few are sold Consumer Reports has no interest in reviewing)) sold in 2015: Less than 1% of that.

Don't expect any similarities in sales tactics.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

oops