Leisure Time PH Balance

[ducru]

Ever since I purchased my hot tub some 18 months ago, I was having to reduce the PH levels in the spa about 3-4 times per week (I use lithium).  In August, I stumbled upon a bottle of Leisure Time PH Balance, which I added when I changed the water.  Since then, I have only had to adjust the PH on 2 occasions.  Can anyone tell me what's in this product ? The bottle mentions that due to its buffering capacity, it is not necessary to adjust the calcium level in the spa.  When I test the calcium levels, it shows that I only have 60 ppm in my water. I tried raising the level, but i can't seem to raise the levels.  Is it actually buffering the ca or is it destroying it ?   Also, when I removed my filters to spray-clean them for the first 2 times after adding this product, it left a milky residue behind, which disappeared after i restarted the filtering. I love the way the product works, but I'm just worried that it might be hurting the spa components or that it may not be the healthiest stuff to soak in.  Anyone with feedback or knowledge of this product ?

[BullFrogSpasMN]

the resident chemical expert is user: chem geek   if you don't get a response here try pm'ing him....most of us here are very knowledgeable on water care but chem geek takes it to another level with his knowledge

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

DO *NOT* RAISE the calcium  levels! Ph Balance will precipitate it out of the water causing EXTREME cloudiness.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 I think Doc means do not.  PH balance and calcium do not play well together. 

[Tman122]

www.rhtubs.com/store/labels/MSDS/MSDS-pH_Balance.htm

Doesn't tell us a lot.

[chem geek]

The Leisure Time pH Balance product is a phosphate pH buffer and will precipitate calcium phosphate if calcium levels are higher.  So as Dr. Spa alluded to, do NOT try and increase Calcium Hardness (CH) when using a phosphate buffer.  There isn't a need to increase CH in a spa anyway unless you are trying to reduce foaming.  In that case, you can either use an anti-foam product or you can use magnesium instead of calcium, say by adding a small amount of epsom salts (magnesium phosphate is more soluble than calcium phosphate).

You say you are using lithium hypochlorite, but if you didn't add any CYA in the water initially, either directly from CYA or via use of Dichlor, then your chlorine will be too strong and harsher on spa components and on you and will outgas faster.  You might consider using the Dichlor-then-bleach method except if you want to use a phosphate buffer you can (instead of lowering the TA and using borates which is what is normally done in the Dichlor-then-bleach method).  Or you can stick with your (expensive) lithium hypochlorite but use Dichlor for about a week to cumulatively add 30-40 ppm CYA by using around 33-44 ppm FC over the week or however long it takes to add that much chlorine (depending on your usage).

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I think Doc means do not.  PH balance and calcium do not play well together. 

oops...thanks! (corrected)

[ducru]

OK, so I will not touch the CH levels.  But is a level of 60 ppm not hurting the spa or its components or is the level of 60 ppm not technically accurate since it is being buffered by the PH Balance product ? Bottom line, is it safe to use ? 

Also, in response to chem geek, are you saying that if there is no CYA in the water, it is making my chlorine harsher ? Is CYA not known to cause cancer ?  How much dichlor is 33-44 ppm, if my hot tub contains 340 gallons, and I normally use 8-10 Tbsp of Lithium per week, and can one safely switch from Lithium to Dichlor then back to Lithium ?  I'm guessing that the CYA also becomes an anchor in balancing the PH ?  So many questions...

[chem geek]

The CH measurement is accurate and it is measuring a low CH value because the phosphate pH buffer has precipitated calcium phosphate out of the water -- likely sitting in your filter until you next clean it.

A low CH is not harmful to the spa unless the spa is made of plaster/cement or has grout in between tile.  Most spas are acrylic or other non-plaster, non-cement materials so there is no need for calcium in the water except to help prevent foaming.  So yes, the phosphate pH buffer is safe to use.  It's just annoying if you have high CH because it will precipitate a lot of calcium phosphate so at first may clog up the filter (but of course you can clean it).

It is low pH that is the most detrimental to the metal components in the spa.  Also, strong oxidizers will degrade metal faster so one should always have some CYA in the water when using a hypochlorite source of chlorine (e.g. bleach or lithium hypochlorite).  So yes, if you did not add CYA or any stabilized chlorine such as Dichlor to the spa, then the active chlorine level is way too high -- the chlorine will be far harsher.  CYA is not a carcinogen and has a toxicity lower than table salt in terms of ingestion.  It does not absorb through the skin (see this paper) and is not volatile.

8 tablespoons of lithium hypochlorite in 340 gallons is 31 ppm FC per week or 4.4 ppm FC per day which would be about 35 person-minutes per day.  How often are you soaking, how many people soak, and for how long each time?  If you are using 4.4 ppm FC per day, then it would take  8-10 days to accumulate enough CYA using Dichlor and yes you would then switch back to using lithium hypochlorite but may find you need somewhat less since you may not be outgassing as much chlorine (which may have been damaging your cover faster).  About once a month, use Dichlor for a day to make up for the CYA slowly oxidized by chlorine over a month.

[ducru]

Thanks chem geek, all is now clear.  As for the dichlor calculation, we are usually 2 people soaking 3-4 times per week, for 20 minute periods each time.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 There is another product that I have heard good things about called Perfect PH.   Not sure if it's the same as far calcium issues though, but might be worth a look.

[Tman122]

I read someplace that low CH can be slightly more harmful to low grade metals also. But your tub likely has higher grade metals in contact with the water. And it would take a lot of years for it to have much of an effect anyway. And those are replaceable parts. Chem?

[chem geek]

Lower pH and higher salt levels would be more harmful to the lower grade metals.  Low calcium isn't an issue.  The idea for calcium is to saturate the water with calcium carbonate to form a thin layer of scale to protect metal, but it's very hard to make that happen consistently such that it works well.  The heater goes on and off changing temperature of the metal by 30ºF which changes the saturation of calcium carbonate and the pump goes on and off changing flow rates all of which make forming a consistent thin scale difficult to achieve.  See this link where corrosion specialists talk about this.

[ducru]

chem geek, if we are usually 2 people soaking 3-4 times per week, for 20 minute periods each time, does your calculation of accumalting enough CYA in 8-10 days of dichlor use, still stand ? Also, just to confirm, I can safely switch from lithium to dichlor and I can safely switch from dichlor to lithium without changing the water ?