Marquis Spirit vs. Bullfrog AL5

[Hottubprosne]

I love reading this stuff it makes my day. A bullfrog spa has a 2 inch line that runs to the bottom of the jet pack. A normal tub ( every other brand on earth) has a 2 inch line that then goes into a manifold that then goes into small hose's that then run to individual jets. The jet pack in a bullfrog is in essence the manifold. Imagine if on your hot springs, or sundance, or whatever you had jets attached directly to the manifold instead of having the small hoses that connect each jet. You would get awesome pressure with out a need for diverters on top to move pressure around. Yes if you shut of one pack you get more pressure at the other seats. But its a stupid amount of pressure. On a sundance or almost any other big name tub that dose not have 5 motors you have to divert pressure to one seat if you leave it in the middle it will kinda blow:) For those of you that have never worked on a second generation bullfrog don't make blanket statements when you don't understand what your talking about. Usually if the other guy has a better product or one the costumer really wants and you don't have it all you can do is badmouth there stuff. Or say its gimmicky. Like hot springs moto massage if you don't sell hot springs and someone really likes the moto massage you better scramble and bad mouth it. Now before you blast me for being a dumb salesman who drinks the cool aide. I am the salesman,and the owner. But i spent 15 years working and selling lots of brands (Islander, Great Lakes, Cal Spa, Dynasty,Nordic, Caldera, Sundance, White Water, Artisian, Bullfrog, i forget the rest) and i still turn wrenches on a regular bases.  Thesis over

[Tman122]

Do you count the hoses inside the jet pac as plumbing? I already made the assumption that the jet pac was the manifold but got blasted here for my ignorance from the owners and dealers who supposedly know how these things work.

Honestly I could care less about what one manufacturer calls innovative. But when it is marketed here on this forum with untruths and skewed "facts". Then I care. I am not scrambling because it's so mind blowing that everyone will soon be out of business except BF because.........

The feel of a hot tub has nothing to do with how much plumbing it has or whether you can change a jet pac in a seat. It has to do with proper flow dynamics and that's bigger than jet pacs and less plumbing, and requires engineers to figure out. And it can be accomplished in many ways. The fact that they may use a smaller GPM pump and motor to turn it (energy efficiency) to accomplish the same "feel" as another guy, may have some merit. Funny I never heard that mentioned in any of the koolaid induced pitches or blinded owner eyes? Probably cause it's "fact". I asked but never received any answer from the pros?

All this and we haven't even started on the "valves/diverters" You BF guys are dug in deep. But so am I.

FYI I don't care for the moto massage.

I also asked this question before of you BF pros. What if 6' of hose and a manifold inside the cabinet driven by a different pump feels better than 2' of hose and a manifold inside a jet pac? Who could possibly say either is better until you sit in front of the jets? And the math there works out to be about 30% less plumbing. I also asked if by putting the manifold inside the vessel doesn't create more noise? It is very unlikely I will get good solid answers for these questions. It is more likely the same or different BF owners and dealers will call me ignorant? Spirited debate is not possible when you, excuse me Jim, drink to much koolaid.

[av8r]

Do you count the hoses inside the jet pac as plumbing?

Uh...what hoses inside the jetpak?

This might be why you're being singled out.  You keep pushing things you haven't taken the time to understand.

[Tman122]

Never mind I see it on their web site, the plumbing is inside the jet pac. A plastic manifold. Molded plumbing lines.

I think I am taking more time than most to understand it.

[Tman122]

Singled out? I've been doing this for close to 15 years on this board. If you think this is the first time I have argued a "fact" you'd be wrong.

I think we got to the bottom of the "full power at all jet pacs" thing. It's not true and basically the same as everyone else by using plumbing and valves to send flow where you want it. Thanks Jim.

[av8r]

Never mind I see it on their web site, the plumbing is inside the jet pac. A plastic manifold. Molded plumbing lines.

I think I am taking more time than most to understand it.

I spoke with one of their engineers before posting.  There is no plumbing inside the JP. It's a big manifold.

[Tman122]

I love reading this stuff it makes my day. A bullfrog spa has a 2 inch line that runs to the bottom of the jet pack. A normal tub ( every other brand on earth) has a 2 inch line that then goes into a manifold that then goes into small hose's that then run to individual jets. The jet pack in a bullfrog is in essence the manifold. Imagine if on your hot springs, or sundance, or whatever you had jets attached directly to the manifold instead of having the small hoses that connect each jet. You would get awesome pressure with out a need for diverters on top to move pressure around. Yes if you shut of one pack you get more pressure at the other seats. But its a stupid amount of pressure. On a sundance or almost any other big name tub that dose not have 5 motors you have to divert pressure to one seat if you leave it in the middle it will kinda blow:) For those of you that have never worked on a second generation bullfrog don't make blanket statements when you don't understand what your talking about. Usually if the other guy has a better product or one the costumer really wants and you don't have it all you can do is badmouth there stuff. Or say its gimmicky. Like hot springs moto massage if you don't sell hot springs and someone really likes the moto massage you better scramble and bad mouth it. Now before you blast me for being a dumb salesman who drinks the cool aide. I am the salesman,and the owner. But i spent 15 years working and selling lots of brands (Islander, Great Lakes, Cal Spa, Dynasty,Nordic, Caldera, Sundance, White Water, Artisian, Bullfrog, i forget the rest) and i still turn wrenches on a regular bases.  Thesis over

I'm glad you have loads of knowledge but. How can you say that there is more flow from a BF versus any other brand when you don't know the GPM outflow at the jets for either? Have you found a way to measure it? And isn't it about feel and not pressure?

[Racenut]

Side profile of jetpack... no hoses.  Jets are fed directly off the back chamber (manifold).  Have you even bothered to look any of this stuff up?

[Tman122]

Never mind I see it on their web site, the plumbing is inside the jet pac. A plastic manifold. Molded plumbing lines.

I think I am taking more time than most to understand it.

I spoke with one of their engineers before posting.  There is no plumbing inside the JP. It's a big manifold.

No it's plumbing. Trust me on that one. If water flows through it, it's plumbing. A manifold is always counted as plumbing when you calculate friction flow loss. And actually has a higher friction flow loss than tubing because of cavitation inside.

[Tman122]

Side profile of jetpack... no hoses.  Jets are fed directly off the back chamber (manifold).  Have you even bothered to look any of this stuff up?

Ummm 5-6 posts up.

[Racenut]

OK, so after weeks of arguing on the internet, you actually just looked at what you're arguing about 30 minutes ago.

And you're right, none of the numbers mean crap if it doesn't feel right.  But it feels great.  And with Bullfrog, if you don't like how a certain seat feels, you have 15 other options you can drop in till you do love it.  Nobody else allows you to customize configuration like that.

[Tman122]

And with Bullfrog, if you don't like how a certain seat feels, you have 15 other options you can drop in till you do love it.  Nobody else allows you to customize configuration like that.

And that my friends is how BF gets such high ratings. I would guess that each pac even supplied with the same flow, based on number of outlets and configuration of said outlets would have a different flow rate? Is there a safeguard built in so if some dumb*** does turn all the pacs off except one the extra flow is diverted to say foot well fixed jets or something? To maintain the efficiency of the pump.

Arctic used to tout you can also customize each and every seat/jet because of the easy access to the plumbing. Seems changes after the sale would be difficult/costly to me. Drilling holes, mounting jets, is there additional ports available, running tubing, is the pump right sized? Most importantly is the pump and plumbing right sized. There are literally 100's of different flow rates in pumps. And literally thousands if you consider RPM/torque differences in all the motor manufacturers. Then combine differences in fitting count, manifold design, distance................finding the right flow rate to feel great becomes a daunting task. Then when you do it's only good for you, the other guy likes something different.

[av8r]

I heard you can move a Bullfrog tub by shutting off all the paks, but one.  The resultant pressure is so high that the tub will move to where ever you want it.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Tman you are putting way more into this than what it is.      I think I said I was done 3 pages ago but at this point I am. Like I mentioned I don't know how many times now?  I don't claim nor ever have that Bullfrog spas to be any better than anybody else's, if I have please show me.   It's a different way to build a spa that gives the consumer more options for hydro therapy.  It has less plumbing than any spa out there,  it has interchangeable jet packs with 16 for now different options.   
 
  You want to understand it freaking buy one and tear it apart.  Jeez where were you when we argued about no by-pass filtration vs water turn over?

  End of story again.   I will add, sorry about calling you a douche, we have both been here a long time and I should not have said that..     

[dporter22]

Singled out? I've been doing this for close to 15 years on this board. If you think this is the first time I have argued a "fact" you'd be wrong.

I think we got to the bottom of the "full power at all jet pacs" thing. It's not true and basically the same as everyone else by using plumbing and valves to send flow where you want it. Thanks Jim.

Yes, we have gotten the bottom of it, and intelligent people will easily see that Tman's uninformed statements about BF are heavily outweighed by people with actual experience.  As much as he doesn't want to believe it, significant power at all the jet packs is true and BF does it without traditional diverters. 

So for anyone who's searching these forums as you do your research, you have a choice to believe someone with no experience in the product he claims to know so much about and can't say anything other than "it's not true", or you can believe the people like myself who tested 7 different brands, none of which could produce strong power at all the seats simultaneously, and now own a BF and can speak from experience.  Or even better you can just go down to the dealer and test one for yourself in order to easily discount everything Tman says.