SoCal Monkey wet tests: Epic, Maxxus, Cameo, Grandee/Envoy, J-385, J-575, J-470

[SoCal Monkey]

This thread was originally titled "Have these extra-strong Sundance jets been discontinued?" Start from the first post if that question interests you, but the discussion led to me wet testing several spas and summarizing my impressions of each, which I thought would be of more general interest, except that it's hidden behind a title asking a narrow question.  So, I've changed the title and added this intro.  If you want to get right to where the wet tests start, skip to Reply #7, where my wet tests began with a Marquis Epic. (Thanks to orlando1 for his excellent feedback throughout) —SoCal Monkey

I've already picked up lots of great info as a lurker here, so thanks for that. Now it's time to decloak for a question I haven't found the answer to.

The pictures below are of a Sundance Maxxus, circa 2002-2004. I'm particularly interested in the three jets below the filter, as zoomed in the second photo. They're more powerful jets than any I've encountered on other models, but I can't find out conclusively what they were called, or whether they're still available on Sundance (or any other) models. They for sure are gone from the current Maxxus, and the closest I've found are some foot jets on an unfilled Cameo (below the lounge seat), so I couldn't even see them turned on to get an approximate idea.

In the older Maxxus, I know these jets were marketed for some kind of rowing feature, but I just like the power. These pics are of a friend's hot tub I've used many times, and while other jet arrangements are nice, I find these ones to be the killer feature that I can't seem to find on the current market. I wouldn't want to do long soaks in front of them, but they're great for a few minutes of deeper massage than I've got from any other jet. Does anybody here know if they're still available?

[Nessuno]

I would like to find out more on the jets for older Sundances too. I have a 2001 Cameo and the rotating jets have plastic bearings and after 14 years, the jets just don't rotate as well as they should. The jets you refer to are the 'foot jets' on my tub. Adjustable, but do not rotate. If I find anything out I will post here.

[medicaldawg]

I have some new bearings for them that i was given I have like 10 extra. Not sure if that would help you but would be glad to send you a couple to see if that would fix your problem

[MarKee]

Not sure about Sundance, but there are several Marquis models that have these types of "geyser" jets.  The Marquis Epic has 2 of them stacked on top of eachother near the filter area, they feel great against your back and on your feet.

[orlando1]

Not sure if they are the same exact jets, but they look a lot like whirpool type jets  in the cameo. These jets are one of the main reasons I went with the cameo over the optima(being delivered tomorrow if weather permits). They are awesome, I love the fact that not only are there three in the foot well, but there's actually a seat with one in it. Of course I couldn't sit there for a long time, but the five minutes I did knocked all of the soreness out of my lower back. The also do wonders for feet as well. Of all the tubs I've wet tested, these were the only one to rival the geyser jets from marquis.

[SoCal Monkey]

Thank you for the feedback.  The Cameo seems to be the most likely contender, and I think there's a decent chance I can find one to wet-test in my area. I hadn't heard about Marquis line, so I'll look into those as well.  I'll continue to stay tuned in case anyone else has more.

[orlando1]

I've wet tested the marquis epic, it's also a great tub. You couldn't go wrong with neither tub. Good luck on the search.

[SoCal Monkey]

I wet tested the Marquis Epic a couple days ago.

* As described here, the two "geyser" jets were powerful, and probably my favorite feature of the tub. I also liked the corner seat with lots of jets that's to the left of the the geysers if you're facing them.

*The lounge seat to the right was a minor disappointment, but I think that was a fit issue, not a design flaw.  The jets for the back - especially lumbar - were quite nice on the lounge, but I couldn't enjoy the leg and feet jets because I'm short (5'7") and they tended to blow me up or make me stretch and brace to keep in place, which I wouldn't want to do all the time. 

*The two corners on the control panel side (i.e. opposite the geysers) were nothing special. They were good for being a bit higher when I didn't feel like full immersion, but I couldn't see ever spending much time in either seat for the massage action. 

*The middle seat directly opposite the geyser jets (adjacent to the control panel) had good back massaging action, especially in conjunction with letting the geysers work the feet. For turning around to let the geysers work the back, that middle seat was also a convenient place to brace against, because those geysers do just push you away if there's nothing to brace against.

* The MicroSilk feature initially malfunctioned, refusing to turn on.  The tub was newly delivered to the showroom, so the guy on the floor eventually concluded that it was a conflict with the ready-clean (or whatever Marquis calls it) pumps being on, because the factory default had left that on a 24-hr. cycle. Once he adjusted that to turn off the non-stope cleaning cycle, Microsilk came on, but it was still a little off-putting to see it not work, so dealers, make sure you test on new tubs before your first wet testers are in the tub asking for it.   It was cool, but I'm not sure it's $2000 cool.

The next two I'd like to test are Sundance Cameo (because it has the "whirlpool" jets I've heard are either the strong ones I first asked about, or close them) and Caldera Cantabria. I don't think the Cantabria has any ultra-strong jets like that, but seems to offer more varied massage options than anything I've heard of so far.  I think a local dealer has a Cantabria available to test, and I've seen a Cameo in his showroom, too, but not filled.

[SoCal Monkey]

I'm kinda new here, so what's the etiquette? My first question was mainly about the old Sundance jets I was hoping to identify, but now that it's more about shopping and comparing specific models I have wet tested or plan to, should that be a new thread?

[amy2421]

This is where wet-testing is so important because everyone has different preferences. We tried a Sundance Cameo and ruled it out because the jets were TOO powerful and I felt like they were just blowing me away. I found myself wanting to turn off the jets completely and just soak. On the other hand, we tried a Jacuzzi and found that the jets were effective, but more gentle and comfortable to sit in front of. We also tried a LaZBoy Spa with the 17 custom massage settings (which I thought would be amazing)... they all felt kind of the same and generally underpowered and ineffective.

[SoCal Monkey]

An earlier reply mentioned the "whirlpool" jets in Sundance tubs, specifically the Cameo, that might be like what I'm looking for in a powerful jet.  Can he, or anyone who might know, tell me 1) how they compare to the "geyser" jets in Marquis tubs, and 2) if there are any jets of that type in the Sundance Optima and Maxxus.  (The specs on Sundance's site seem to indicate yes to the second question, but it's impossible to identify number or placement by jet type in the marketing pictures.)

There's a dealer local to me (Ventura Co., CA) who sells Sundance tubs, but none of the specific ones I'm interested in are available to wet test. The only Sundance model he has filled is a Maxxus, which he says is enough to try out any seat or jet options that are available in the others. I'm skeptical of that, but also not eager to haggle over filling tubs for me when I'm still in the narrowing down stage. To dealers reading this, how much hassle/expense is involved in filling and prepping for a wet test? Is "interested customer" enough to reasonably ask that it be done, or is that more of a ready-to-buy-from-you-just-deciding-which-one kind of request?

I would also like to wet test a Caldera Cantabria. I don't think it has any of those geyser-like jets I was looking for, but I don't want one feature to be a dealbreaker, and the Cantabria size and layout are appealing. Does anyone know a So Cal dealer where I could find one to wet test? The closer to Ventura County, the better. (I already checked Hydro-Spa — they've got Sundance and some others, but sounded like they have no intention of getting another Cantabria for the floor.)

Thanks.

[orlando1]

There are four of these whirpool jets in the cameo....three in the footwell and one in one of the seats. The three in the footwell are slightly larger than the one in the seat and as a result more powerful. I haven't wet tested the maxxus, but I did wet test the optima a couple of times. It has one of these jets that's not in a seat, but up high and faces the accusage seat at an angle. In that location, I found it to be distracting. But also, from memory it's the same size as the smaller whirpool jet in the cameo, but that jet is still plenty powerful. It's just not as powerful as the three in the cameo's footwell.

Now in comparison to the geyser jets, they are the closest thing to them, and that's including all of the hot tubs I wet tested from hotsprings which also have their own version of "whirpool" jets in the footwell, but not nearly as powerful as the ones in the cameo. I don't think the ones in the cameo's footwell are quiet as powerful as the geyser jets, but they are close(really close). And given there are three vs the two geyser jets in the epic, the effect is actually a little better to me. Those jets in the cameo can litterally peel the skin off the bottome of your feet, and after a long day, sometimes that's just what I need. But I also like the location of them as well in addition to the fact that you can angle them in any direction you like. That's something you can't do with the geyser jets. So I can sit in the seat directly in front of them, angle them up, and get a really nice frontal body massage. The jets are so powerful, I can pretty get a similar effect from any seat, but it's just more intense in the seat that's directly facing them.

[SoCal Monkey]

Thank you, Orlando, that's just the kind of detail I was hoping for. It definitely makes me want to wet test the Cameo. I just have to persuade my local dealer to fill one, or find someone else who has one filled. I'm hoping to wet test his Maxxus today or tomorrow, so maybe I can make some progress.

You mentioned being able to angle those jets up to hit upper body. Is the layout such that you can brace yourself to stay in place for that whether massaging the front or back? The power sounds great, but just eyeballing the layout, my concern was that those Cameo jets would be good for feet but not so much for back. It sounds like you're saying that's not a problem, but I want to confirm.

Are we allowed to ask for referrals to help find places to wet test a particular spa? If so, I'm asking anyone who knows to help me find somewhere in Ventura County (CA) to wet test a Sundance Cameo and a Caldera Cantabria. If not, pretend I didn't ask.

[orlando1]

The fourth jet which is slightly smaller is located in a seat that hits you directly in the lower back. Honestly, I think it's more than enough. It's so powerful, that I couldn't see anyone sitting there with the jet going full blast for more than a couple of minutes. I call it the specialty seat. For me it serves one purpose. On the days I have to do yard work around the house and my lower back is in knots, about 30 seconds in that seats knocks the pain right out. But it's possible to have the three larger ones to hit you in the back.

Depending on how tall you are, you can sit directly on the floor with your back facing the jets and your feet propped against the front wall of the tub. I have tried it, and it's like sitting in front of three firehouses(literally). I don't see anyone needed that type of therapy, but it's fun to try it out a couple of times. But sitting in the seat directly in front of them gives me good front body therapy without it being to intense. I don't need to brace myself against anything. But if one needed to, there are places to do that.

[SoCal Monkey]

Thanks for the additional descriptions, orlando1. I wouldn't expect those strong jets to appeal to everyone, but as I mentioned in the opening post, it was three jets like that in an old Maxxus that got me looking in the first place. I know I've liked them in my friend's old Maxxus, but that's about it. It's possible the novelty would quickly wear off, which is why I'm considering jets like that a bonus if I can find them, but not a must-have.

With all that in mind, I wet tested a Maxxus yesterday. It had 2 whirlpool jets in opposite corner seats, coming out the side such that they are *not* positioned for easy use for strong massage. In this case, I think "whirlpool" really does mean making the pool whirl, not for deep massage. Despite that, I found much to like, and a few other things I didn't.

I was pleased with the massage action and variety of all three regular corner seats. In one of the corners with a whirlpool jet, there's a diverter that switches between good back and neck action, or calves and glutes. Both settings felt good. Turning that diverter halfway allowed for hitting all areas at once, but not full power (which is probably okay). I did notice it sounded kind of loud when halfway like that.  The other corners were just nice variations, one of which also had calf jets that I liked. Sliding down a bit in all those seats also felt good for some different action on the neck and shoulders. I liked the footwell that offered some foot action from pretty much every seat. I wish the footwell jets could be set stronger when wanted, but for a no-adjustment jet, their strength was okay.

The main disappointment was the lounge seat. I wanted to like it, and I'm sure it would be great for someone who fits it, but it wasn't made to fit me. I'm 5'7", and the leg jets pushed me up if I just relaxed. I could brace my feet against the foot-jet area to hold myself in place, but that didn't seem a very relaxing way to enjoy that seat long-term. Also, the spacing of leg jets was too wide to hit my legs all at once, so it was more like waving my legs back and forth to get hit by two of those jets at a time.  The back jets were fine, but impossible to really enjoy with the bottom half of my body fitting so poorly. So, I still like the concept, but it didn't fit me in this tub.

The lounge was the only dealbreaker, but I had some minor quibbles with other things:

* The hand/wrist jets, like the lounge, were apparently placed with someone 6' or taller in mind, because I had to lean far forward in any corner seat to get my hands over them.  The only good hand/wrist action I found was in the corner with calves/glutes action going, where I could put my hands in front of those glute jets and that felt good.

* The only controls for turning pumps on/off were at the main control panel, unlike some spas I've seen that have buttons for that that can be controlled from other seats as well.

* On the jets that can be adjusted by twisting the covers, like the neck jets, some were "sticky", meaning they didn't turn easy and lacked any texture to make it easier to get a grip. When I asked the salesguy about this and whether there was some maintenance trick to make them spin easy again, he sort of denied any problem and said they're supposed to be that way so they don't accidentally turn due to accidental bumps. I didn't press the issue, but it was obvious that some turned easy (not just from incidental contact) while others didn't, so that's a problem that I could see being very annoying if I had no way to fix it.

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After wet-testing the Marquis Epic and the Sundance Maxxus, I would choose the Maxxus if those were my only two choices. The geyser jets on the Epic rocked, but I expect 90% or more of my spa use to be sitting in front of more conventional jets, and for that, I liked the Maxxus seats more. That lounge seat, though...

The salesguy said the lounge seat on the Maxxus and the Cameo are identical, which means even though I think I'd like the whirlpool jets in the Cameo, it's out because I don't want to sacrifice that much space to a lounger I won't fit.  The next most likely candidates then, are the Aspen and Optima, which are like the Maxxus and Cameo, respectively, only replacing the lounge seats with another corner and side seat.  Unfortunately, when I compare the layouts in the brochure (or online), the Aspen and Optima don't *only* change the layout where the lounge seats would go. That's unfortunate because without wet testing, I can't tell if I'd like those different corner seats as much as the ones I already know I liked in the Maxxus, and I have yet to find somewhere to wet test any Sundance model besides the Maxxus.  First-world problems, right?

The salesguy came up with some unflattering things to say about the Caldera Cantabria when I mentioned that was one I'd like to wet test, but I don't know if that was just salesmanship or accurate knocks against the Cantabria.

I may have to expand the range of how far I'm willing to drive for wet tests, but next up on my wish list are the Optima, Aspen, and Cameo (in case the salesguy was wrong about the lounge), and if I can find one, a Cantabria.