Insulation - Arctic Spas vs Beachcomber

[TALKCalgary.com]

Arctic Spas vs Beachcomber in cold weather

Living in Alberta Canada, temperatures frequently drop to -30 during winter. So - buying a hot tup with good insulating properties is important to my wife and I. We recently looked at Arctic Spars, Beachcomber and Marquis and would appreciate any feedback from users of such.

One thing that we were told by the Arctic Spas people was to stay away from the type of "injected foam" insulation used by Beachcomber, as it made access to plumbing almost impossible. We were also told that Beachcomber pumps "wasted heat" and were "prone to freezing in cold weather", during minor power cuts due to the fact they were placed outside the main enclosure in a totally un insulated box.   Again, any comments?

[Lori]

First, I do not live in Canada and had neither tub in my area.

May I make a suggestion?  Before you start a big war about this subject, did you do a search for this topic?  This has been debated to death (or at least to me).

Please, do a search, (there is a link at the top of the page) and see what you find.

[poolboy34]

Negative seliing is never a good sign.  I really wish salespeople would sell on the merits and benefits of THEIR product, instead of negatively selling against another product.  FYI, all three manufacturers you are looking at make well insulated spas that are suitable in your climate.  Your operating costs will be minimal no matter which of these tubs you choose.  Go with the tub you feel most comfortable in.

Jason,
Store manager for a Caldera and Dimension One Spa Dealer

[TALKCalgary.com]

Hi

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I appreciate, people taking the time to help a first time buyer.

I can see why you say this topic has been covered extensively. So, having done a search as suggested it would appear to me as a first time buyer, that there is very little deference when it comes to the insulation properties (and therefore the running costs) of the top tub manufactures.  I guess then it makes sense (all things being equal) to go with a manufacture, who ensure that all their pluming is accessible and not encased in foam. After all, if it makes little difference to the insulation value why gum up the works :-)

In a different vain, I also found the Beachcomber 750 to be less powerful than Arctic Spas Tundra Legend, although the Beachcomber was a little quieter and the dealership was very helpful. I guess at the end of the day, as Jason pointed out it's down to which tub feels best to the buyer.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

 I guess then it makes sense (all things being equal) to go with a manufacture, who ensure that all their pluming is accessible and not encased in foam. After all, if it makes little difference to the insulation value why gum up the works :-)

Look at the plumbing that is NOT "encased" in foam while the pump turns on and off. See ALL the movement? This makes these pipes significantly MORE prone to leaking over time. I too would want this type of plumbing accessable.

There's a supoosid study by a home warranty company that determined full foam spas had less then 1/4 the plumbing leaks that non-full foamed spas had. PLEASE NOTE, at this point this study is still heresay as I have yet to be able to find an actual copy of it......... but it does make sense.........

[autoplay]

I believe Dr.Spa is trying to convey that full foam spas add some strength/protection to the plumbing and fittings.  Both systems have their merits.

Also talking to a few spa techs,it seems to be a non-issue as far as repairing a leak in either system.

The best advise I can give you is this,Wet-Test as many spas as possible.....and choose a spa and a dealer that give you the comfort satisfaction you seek.

Happy 4th all....I'm off to enjoy the sites and sounds in less than 1 hour.

P.S. ... Suncoast offshore racing ROCKS!!

[ZzTop]

Repost

IMHO

Arctic Spas are over priced and made of Flash and Salesmanship rather than Real Engineering.



Arctic cabinets:  The cabinet and the shell butt up to one another instead of overlapping the cabinet with the shell which will allow moisture into the cabinet. If you have a look at their cabinet doors it is made up of horizontal boards which catch and absorb water.  The top and bottom have rails which allows dirt and moisture to collect on the horizontal surfaces.  


Most high-end manufactures stopped making a cabinet with doors that hung on the sidewalls a long time ago because of the possibility of dirt and moisture collecting on the top and bottom increasing the possibility for rot and water damage.

So the cabinet has many places for water to seep in and collect in the unsupported foam.  

I also question their equipment, pumps, wiring, and control circuitry, being subjected to constant 100 plus degree temperatures which just has to reduce their life expectancy.

And there are other problems  too . . .  


There are much better Spas out there for the money.  Have a look at Beachcomber, Marquis, Dimension 1,  Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance, Coleman  There is no comparison when it comes to quality and engineering!

Regards, Zz

[ZzTop]

Repost

There has been a previous thread on this subject: go to:

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-


Arctic Cabinet

Note: the rails and the door spaces

[ZzTop]

This is a repost

The more I read I have come to believe that the thermopane system has some inherent problems.

Reading from posts of repair people they seem to point to the following problems:

1. that the plumbing is not fixed in ridged foam allowing the plumbing to move, vibrating over time and resulting in leaks.
 
2, The operation of the pumps and jets are much noisier owing to the lack of insulation making it more difficult to have a conversation when in operation.

3.  The thermal capabilities of air are not the equal to full foam resulting in higher costs of operation especially in cold climates.

I should also point out to be fair that if you do have a leak in a full foamed tub it is more difficult to repair, however from all the posts I have read this does not seem to be a problem that happens often.  This is not the case for tubs that are not full foamed.

It pays to do your home work!

[ZzTop]

Repost:

Full foam offers the highest potential insulating value.  It supports the plumbing (has less leaks) and insulates it from pipe movement and vibration.  It offers quieter operation.  It inhibits insects and mice from living in the cavity surrounding the tub.

Note: Our houses are fully insulated, (No Air Space in the walls), . . and we don’t leave off the interior drywall so that you can get to the plumbing lines to repair leaks.  If your contractor told you he was just going to put just foil in your 6" exterior walls would you let him?  Think about it.

Fridges are fully Foamed to maximize their R rating.  The more foam the better.

Coleman coolers are FULLY FOAMED!

A Thermos has space inside it but it is in a VACUUM.  Thermopane does not use a vacuum.

It makes absolutely NO sense to not support the plumbing lines with a little or no insulation in a Thermopane design.

Having pumps, wires and electronics operating in 100 plus degrees of constant heat cannot be good for their longevity.

While both systems work, the greatest long term problem is rigid support of the plumbing especially at the jets.  Each time the pumps are turned on there is a shock to the pipes which can stress the pipe where it is attached to the jet fitting.  As the tub ages these problems become apparent in some designs where no  or very little foam is used for support of the pipes.

Advantages of Thermopane:

If you like your mice dry roasted it is a great design.  It might be good for dehydrating meat and fruit, any one for some rodent Jerky? Oh yeah I almost forgot . . .you can keep your towels warm.

Yes, you can get at and fix a leak easier.  It seems that there are far fewer leaks in a full foam tub.   Just ask the guys that repair them.

It costs less to manufacture a Thermopane design., Foam is expensive.

Now Martha is the jury still out?

It also should be mentioned  that it is better to fully insulate all four sides of a Spa, than three, and that the greatest heat loss in a spa is at the waters surface.
So a Spa blanket and and a very well insulated Spa Cover are very big factors in fully insulating your spa and will be reflected in your total energy costs.

ps: You folks in sunny Florida might want to ignore some of this rant as us Northern folks just don't have your kind of weather.

Regards Zz

[ZzTop]

TalkCalgary.com  what I am trying to point out is.

DO YOUR HOME WORK.

There is a lot more to know than what a salesperson will tell you, or Not tell you.

Re: Warranties,  look for the exclusions, such as replacement of the neck pillows.

Beachcomber and Marquis are both full foam Spas with very good reputations.

While I believe that full foam is better, Thermopane Spas, if properly engineered, seems to perform ok as long as the plumbing is properly supported..

The Foam issue should not be your biggest deciding factor in purchasing a spa.  Look for overall quality, Comfort (WET TEST), Manufactures
Reputation and After Sales Support.  

A spa is not a small investment, so Quality is VERY important to your long term satisfaction in Total Cost Of Ownership, Reliability and Enjoyment.

There is a great deal of information contained on this board, all you have to do is mine for it.  My Learned, fellow posters have written to great length on this and many other subjects.

Regards, ZzTop    John B.

[TALKCalgary.com]

Hi John B.

Thanks for your comments. My concerns about full foam were due in part to the following.

My neighbor had a full foam insulated hot tub in which bees had decided to nest. When the nest was removed it was discovered that the tub had a minor leek. Finding this took a tech a good half day and caused one hell of a mess in her yard, as the tech striped out foam to first find, and then repair a very minor fault. The overall cost for the repair was $700.00. The service tech who carried out the work said that if it had not been for the foam her repair bill would have been around $50.00

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking tubs like the Beachcomber  As a former engineer, I do see sense in keeping both motors and electronics cool. If manufactures wish to use the waste heat from a motor then perhaps they should consider water cooling.  After all, the cooler a motor can be kept the longer it's life. For me, Beachcomber has some definite plus points in it's design, but injecting foam to fill a cavity? John, the only reason I can see for manufactures to do this is one of cost and speed. But hey, what do I know? After all, I am still in the process of buying my first tub:-)

Steve

[ZzTop]

Steve, I was once a plumber.

Have you ever seen a stress crack?

That occurs when a pipe is not supported and each time the water is turned on and off the pipe is jolted.
The inevitable result is a stress crack occuring where the pipe is fixed and cannot move.

To follow your reasoning regarding injection foam, would you recommend that a fridge use less foam?

The number one selling Hot tub manufacturer in North America, Hot Springs (Watkins) build full foam tubs as do Marquis, Dimension One, Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Beachcomber.

The primary reason for the foam is to increase the R Factor and secondly to provide support to the plumbing.

It costs the Manufacturer much more to fully foam a tub not less.

We have numerous posts by spa repair people on this board, who claim that repairing a full foam tub is not hard or expensive to do, and more over they see far fewer leaks in full foam tubs.

In cold climates the higher the R value the better and relates to the energy cost, in warm climates this argument is redundant.

My concern in this matter is that as a tub ages, after the warranty has expired, (usually 5 years), the plastics tend to harden and become brittle from age and from chemicals in the water, the possibility of leaks becomes greater.  Better plumbing support decreases the incidence of this problem.  This is what I am alluding to when I talk about a well engineered Spa.

The bottom line is any tub can suffer a leak, of course the more jets the greater the odds of a leak and the less plumbing support the greater chances of a leak.

Without knowing all the circumstances, I feel your neighbor got taken by an unscrupulous repair person.

I see we both agree on keeping the electronics and motors cool.

A spa should last between Ten to Fifteen years and sometimes beyond...  Over the life of the Spa, you are much more likely to replace, Pillows at $25.00 to $50.00 each,  pump seals $200.00, Heaters $200.00+, Motor & Pumps costing between $250 - $600 each,   and Electronics $500 - $800, than to repair leaks.

BTW Beachcomber offers their products two different ways.  With their Protect feature, where the pumps are inside an INSULATED Box/Step, the advantage being that all four sides of the Spa are fully insulated and resulting in the best possible insulating values to the tub and much quieter operation or BUILT INTO  the spa, as other manufactures do.  Your choice.

As long as the body of water in the tub stays warm you will not experience freeze up, and the electronics are designed to run the pumps if the water temperature falls below 50 degrees.  The better the spa is insulated the longer it would survive against freezing from a power failure.

Other important factors is the quality of the cover and the use of a spa blanket.  The surface of the water is where the greatest heat loss occurs. AS IT IS THE BODY OF WATER IN THE SPA THAT RETAINS THE HEAT, which keeps the pumps from freezing.  This applies to either design.

Regards, Zz
John B.

[Tman122]

Did the Beachcomber or Marquis dealer trash the Arctic? Or was the Arctic dealer the only one to use negative selling tactics?

[ZzTop]

Did the Beachcomber or Marquis dealer trash the Arctic? Or was the Arctic dealer the only one to use negative selling tactics?

I am not a dealer, period.