Insulation - Arctic Spas vs Beachcomber

[ebirrane]

Hi John B.

Thanks for your comments. My concerns about full foam were due in part to the following.

My neighbor had a full foam insulated hot tub in which bees had decided to nest. When the nest was removed it was discovered that the tub had a minor leek. Finding this took a tech a good half day and caused one hell of a mess in her yard, as the tech striped out foam to first find, and then repair a very minor fault. The overall cost for the repair was $700.00. The service tech who carried out the work said that if it had not been for the foam her repair bill would have been around $50.00

Egad.

Posts from spa service techs on this board have stated that fixing a leak in a foamed tub is not appreciably worse than fixing a leak in a thermopane tub.  Though most people preface it with "if they know what they are doing".

I could see a leak in a difficult place taking maybe 2x or even, possibly, 3x the time/cost.  However, saying that you are going to pay 14x more doesn't ring true.  

I would be concerned that your friend was taken for a ride.  If there was foam "all over the place" it could be either a new person, or a person unfamiliar with foamed tubs?  Was this a person from their dealer?  A local plumber from the yellow pages?  A younger guy?  

It's entirely possible that the person just did not know what they were doing and put their education on your friend's dime.

You may want to post just that experience in a different topic and get some opinions from the spa technicians on this site.

Best of luck in your purchase!

-Ed

[TALKCalgary.com]

To answer the questions from John B and Ed. It was the Arctic guys who stated that full foam insulation was a "bad thing". To back up this point, they showed me a selection of full foam tubs they had traded in from competitors that were a total mess underneath.  They also made  a very convincing argument for keeping the water pumps protected from cold weather by enclosing them under the tub shell. To me, as a first time buyer, the point they made about Beachcomber pumps being prone to frost damage in the event of a power outage was a valid one.

As to my friend. I think Ed is right, she may have been taken for a ride. She inherited her tub when she moved in to her new home and had it repaired by a an independent service tech, who apparently removed just about all of the insulation before finding a damaged seal.

The foam problem when servicing, was also (inadvertently) made by Beachcomber themselves. When I asked why they only provided one light in their tubs they said that "the more equipment that goes into a tub such as fiber optic lighting etc, the greater the chance that it could be damaged in the event a service tech had to start digging around to fix a fault".

You know after three weeks of talking to dealers, I am beginning to think that owning a hot tub is just more trouble than its worth.

Steve

[JcDenton]

Hi TalkCalgary

This is my first post. I am not a dealer nor do I have any vested interest in any particular brand. I have been coming here to this forum and reading and learning. I have also spent much time reviewing all the posts to this forum, page by page, backwards to the year 2000.

Like you, I had determined through elimination, research and wet testing, that we had narrowed down our two choices to either the Beachcomber 750 or the Arctic Summit Signature. (We had determined that both tubs were of high quality and similar price point.)

We live in Winnipeg and climate was a critical factor in our choice. I have refrained from posting as the Arctic vs. Beachcomber debate has been hotly contested and there really isn't much else that can be said.

In our experience, the Arctic dealer did not use negative selling tactics in any manner. They were extremely flexible with all wet tests - even filling up a different tub quickly on our request to try out. In comparison, the Beachcomber was also quite respectable however as he felt we were leaning towards Arctic he began to warn us of all the potential problems were might experience. I did not like that.

To sum up, we have purchased the Arctic tub but have yet to take delivery. It just felt better. Interestingly, we found the Summit to be quiter than the 750 (wife and I could talk) as well (although this was most likely an isolated incident) after the wet test (750) my wife and I felt a little light headed and dizzy ( 15 minutes in water only).

Either way, we went with our gut. Whether the thermopanes are superior or inferior we will soon find out. If anyone asks, we would recommend both Arctic and Beachcomber.

I'm not sure if this helps, but good luck and Happy Canada Day.

Rock

[ebirrane]

Well that's the problem! You are talking to dealers!  At least on message boards all you have to contend with is people wildly trying to justify their own purchases.  

The insulation thing is a religious war a-la PC and Macintosh.  There are strong reasons on both sides, and both sides will try and scare the heck out of you.  You will find tons of opinions and facts on it on this board and others. The benefits and compromises are no secret and any individual dealer will stress their benefits and their competitor's compromises.  Research and then pick the style whose benefits are most important to you.

As for Beachcomber, my guess is that they are more concerned about "service techs" like the one your friend got than one from a beachcomber dealer. There's a spa tech on here who posted that either one takes 1/2 hour to fix.

I would specifically take your frost concerns to this board and to any full foamed dealer.  I would imagine that venting in the thermopane to allow the heater/pumps to not overheat along with seams that allow access to the heater and pumps would mean that during any kind of significant power outage that would affect a foam spa would also bode poorly for a thermopane spa.  Artic spas have vents on all 4 corners specifically to bring in cool air to cool their electronics I thought.  Those pumps need airflow and that air comes from outside.

I would also have thought that a severe power outage (10-20 hours) would more seriously affect a thermo-pane spa which has a lower R value than a foamed spa??  Once the air gets cold in a thermopane spa you've got freezing air above and below the shell.

I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't take the Arctic salesguy's word at face value until you let people here or at other dealers defend against those claims.

Any anyone can rough up a spa... I've heard of dealers doing worse.

-Ed

[doodoo]

Like ZZ this is a repost.
*********
Taking a big risk adding to this debate  . But having recently shopped around for and purchased a Spa I wanted to share what we were told or not during our visits to the many dealers in the Ottawa region. In other words the buyer's perspective.

The biggest difference was in approach and both were presented as benefits.  The thermopane dealers told us of the benefits of their products because of the ease in fixing leaks as in should there be a leak it will never be a problem to fix. The full foam dealers presented this issue from a warranty perspective as in should there ever be a leak we will be there for you.  

In hindsight, we felt more comfortable with the full foam products because they were presenting a benefit of non worry whereas the thermopane dealers caused us to step back a bit as this was presented as a consequence.  Now this could be the approach in our area here and very different to others. This is not based on facts or percentages in leaks or anything else but it is the perception that we were left with and it was very much a consistent approach between the two manufacturing styles.

Interestingly, not one dealer showed us a pipe filled with water. All had at least one tub with open panels to show the systems, which is where we could see pipe movement  (vibration) in thermopane products.  Again perception is what I am speaking about here about product reliability.

I don't profess to put one manufacturing style over another, but the majority of this debate (contest) seems to be between dealers, service tech's, etc.... on this and other boards rather than joe consumer.    Seems to me that the real issue revolves around managing consumer expectations. The dealer we went with also made it very clear to us that like a car or a house, you need to care for your spa and yes you may in the distant future have to replace parts or fix things like leaks. But, he said, we will be there for you. That for us was the magic phrase that got us to buy from him and not from his full foam competitor (selling another reputable brand) accross the road (literally).  Oh yeah, it was also the great experience in the wet test and a million other things.....

*********
The thermopane dealer had my kids jump on their cover to show that it was strong.  And to a certain degree we perceived that he did impart this feeling that Thermopane tubs were better than full foam as he differentiated his product from competitors. Clearly I did not agree then nor do I today.

As I said in a previous post, this debate seems to be more centered between dealers rather than consumers. The only debate or concern that a consumer seems to have is the selling tacticts. And from my perspective, the full foam sales seem to be more credible because it is not approached as a negative but rather a waranty benefit.

At least that was our experience when we were shopping around.  Naturally others may have a completely different sales experience during their shoppong of a Spa.

[ZzTop]

TalkCalgary.com have a look at another Hot Tub Form

www.poolsearch.org/forum/read.php?f=8&i=14101&t=13780

Here is just one quote from this thread:

"Author: todd (63.227.141.---)
Date:   06-23-04 16:30

Stosh,

Just so you know I sold Arctic in the past, and what we did on the floor was set up and fill a spa waited for it to heat to temp, then we shut it off and unplugged the heater we then turned it back on and we would let the pumps run until we got the temp to 107 degrees. so when a customer came into the store we showed them the temp reading on the panel then we removed one of the compartment doors to show the customer that the heater was not plugged in. This is one of the many questionable practices we were taught to do in order to sell the arctic spas. We have gotten reports that the reason arctic lights are leaking (in a lot of spas in the field)is because one of the arctic owners owns a plastic co. and he is using plastic that is being eaten by the Baqua spa product. We have also learned that they have now decided to make their own jets and they are made half as good as waterway jet. They have changed the second pump to one speed and painted it gold to look like a different make (while all other companies are attempting to go with all two speed pumps). Check valves are also becoming a problem as well in the arctic spa. Other information is coming in on a regular basis so feel free to e mail me with questions I will be glade to share."



You might want to do a Search "Arctic Spa"  very enlightening

Artic Sales pitch leaves a lot to be desired.  Beware!

[Steve]

Oh how I miss this!!    

Steve

[ZzTop]

And how we miss YOU.

Hope things are working out fine

Keep in Touch

Zz

[doodoo]

Stevie returns.  

Care to share any thoughts on the Thermopane / full foam debate???

[ebirrane]

And specifically in really, really cold weather.  

I could see someone (not me) going thermopane because they are afraid of leaks, and would rather have 5 easy service calls to fix a leaky thermopane tub than 1 expensive service call to fix a full-foamed tub (assuming it's one of those expensive foam repairs and both tubs are out of warranty).

But I'm kind of blown away at the inference that thermo-pane designs are, by nature, *significantly* (if at all) better than a full-foamed tub in severely cold weather (including, but not limited to, power outages).  

That just doesn't ring true to me, but I never owned a thermopane spa before.

-Ed

[stuart]

Hey zz!
Some great posts here but next time don't hold back so much! Tell us how you really feel!

Just thought I would share something. I had my basement refinishing contractor and the inspector both out looking at my project recently and asked them if it would be OK if we just put some sheet foam and panel up leaving the walls with a dead air space and made the panels removable so we could repair plumbing if needed. When the contractor stopped laughing, he said that was the craziest idea he has ever heard and that he wanted no part of it. The inspector told me if I was serious he would not sign off on my permit! I told them I was just kidding and wanted to relate my industry to theirs.

The inspector has a Coleman spa and asked me after thinking about it if there was a way he could foam his spa after the fact.

I know the arguments for both sides here and am not trying to take sides but I thought it was interesting how the conversation turned out from a different perspective outside of the industry. I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!

[ZzTop]

Hey zz!
Some great posts here but next time don't hold back so much! Tell us how you really feel!

Thanks Stuart, I will try harder next time,  he he

[doodoo]

I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!

Ahhh yes, the proverbial let's laugh about something and get the police ( I mean building inspector) involved  

Just for good measure and fun Stuart, put together some plumbing outside over the wall.  When they both look at that and ask why, tell them that since you can't get your removable panels they left you with no choice but to put the plumbing outside in case it require maintanance.  LOL! On second thought, better not do that!

[Jordy]

Before you decide to purchase a Spa, wait. Judging by your username, you are in Calgary.  If you are then check out the Jacuzzi showroom, which will be open in August. Wet testing is King.

[Steve]

Hi all,

Things are going really well. Looks like you haven't missed a beat Zz and you're wise beyond your years!
I think I've said all I can doodoo on this topic and people are tired of hearing from me on it!

Steve