Sundance FLO problem

[Dewdman42]

I just got a used Sundance Optima from a non-sundance dealer, though a very good dealer in the area.  I'm in a cold  weather environment with sub freezing temps.  It worked great for a week or so and then the FLO indicator came on and the water cooled way down.  They told me to recycle the circuit breaker to reset it, which made no difference.  Eventually they came out and fiddled around with it and could not get it working and finally got some kind of Sundance guy to come fiddle around with it and they installed a different circ pump and finally it was working again...for about a week and then the FLO message came on again.  The message alternates between FLO and COOL.  I'm not sure whether FLO is flashing or not.

This time they came over the took off the cover from the hot tub and then pulled a socket out of the motherboard and put it back in which reset something and caused the FLO message to go away and everything to work normally.  He asked me if I get any power outages around here, and we do all the time.  He told me there is something funny about some sundance spas where if there is a power outage, the electronics get confused and this has to be done in order to get the FLO device to wake up and start working properly. 

I can't be having to take the cover off the hot tub to do this every time there is a power outage, so right now I'm pretty pissed and about ready to make this dealer refund me for the hot tub, which may not be that easy to do, but frankly this is getting ridiculous and I'm not convinced he knows what he's doing with Sundance either.  I am not sure whether they also replaced the FLO switch when they replaced the pump, I am going to try to ask, but this problem keeps coming up, and for now I need to know whether the power outage could actually cause that to happen every time and if there is anything I can do about it, and then secondly how I can get this hot tub working properly

[Kev B]

 Having a technician that seems to just "fiddle around" is not a good thing. It sounds like an actual flow issue to the flow switch, Sundance has the water leaving the circ pump and branching off to two locations on certain models......leaving little room for diminished flow due to dirty filters, maybe a partially plugged pump impeller etc.
 Not sure about the power outage issue, but it is hard to believe a reset of the board after a power outage would result in an error message for a flow issue.

[clover]

That is misleading advice, and you have been misinformed. 

There are 2 "FLO" messages that disable the heater, thus no heat.  If they replaced the circulation pump and that resolved the problem, one would assume it was the circulation pump, and the problem is corrected.  I am not going to discuss the circulation pump, as we now know it can not be the problem.

The service tech took "something" off of the circuit board, which was most likely the sensor loom at the top, left of center, on the circuit board, and then he put it back on, and it was OK.

Let me tell you what happened.  The electronic components use the Flo switch as a safety device to not allow the heater to work when something is wrong.  In this case the Flo switch is bad and needs to be replaced.  When the spa shuts down, the electronics expect the Flow switch to "open" but the circuit board does not get THAT message, so it disables the system to prevent damage.  Lucky you, eh!

IF you have an ohmmeter, test the continuity of the flow switch with the system powered down, it should read "open", or infinity, there should be no continuity in an open switch.  IF you have continuity, it proves to you the switch is bad.  Simply replace the Flow switch and the problem is resolved.  When the tech pulled the loom off of the board, the electronics then recognized "an open switch".  When he put it back on, it is still a bad switch, BUT the electronics also recognized the switch had "opened" when the loom was off, albeit temporarily, and the problem is "temporarily" resolved until the next time the system shuts down, and the circuit board does not get the message. 

You can perform the same preliminary function the service tech did to verify what I say, but the solution is to replace the flow switch.

[Dewdman42]

clover you seem to really know what you are talking about on these Sundance Spas, I have read some other posts from you, so hopefully you can help me figure this out, as the advice from the non-sundance dealer that sold me this used tub seems flawed, the part about power outages causing me to have to take the side off the hot tub and reseat the jumper on the motherboard is not really an acceptable solution.

So I found out a little more history.  The first thing they tried to do is to replace the FLO switch.  That didn't work so they then replaced the circ pump.  It seemed to work fine after that for a few days, but I left town for a week and when I came back the solid FLO indicator was on again.  I called them to come over, they tried to recycle the power and ended up taking the side off the tub and reseating that jumper on the motherboard, which reset it and it was able to function for a few hours to get the water temp up to 90 or so and before the end of the day the FLO indicator came back on again and the water is now dropping in temp today. 

This is a Cameo 850 series, not sure how old.  He seems to think the last thing to check would be that the motherboard is somehow screwed up, but I know that would be an expensive fix for them.

The filter is clean, I've hardly used the tub since I got it because it hasn't been working right.  The door for the filter compartment is not really working that well, could that be the issue?  When I first got it, the door was just stuck open.  It was missing the float.  He stuffed some generic foam into it to cause it to float, but kinda seemed like maybe floating too much, not sure, but mostly the door kind of jams up on the sides and doesn't slide up and down that well.  I have never seen that compartment become empty, it always seems to have water getting in, so I wasn't worrying about it, but could that be causing this FLO problem to happen somehow? 

Its going to be a problem when I am out of town a lot and cold climate here if this FLO turns off the heater and the motherboard isn't smart enough to reset when water is flowing through the switch or whatever.. 

[Dewdman42]

When the spa shuts down, the electronics expect the Flow switch to "open" but the circuit board does not get THAT message, so it disables the system to prevent damage.  Lucky you, eh!

 and the problem is "temporarily" resolved until the next time the system shuts down, and the circuit board does not get the message. 

So what I take from your explanation is that the flow switch is supposed to send some kind of electrical signal back to the motherboard to let it know the switch is flowing water (not sure if that is open or closed).  For whatever the reason, this is not happening, either the switch is not sending it or the wires are not carrying it back to the motherboard, or the motherboard jumper connection is perhaps flakey in some way that would cause this electrical signal from the switch to not make it to the motherboard, or the motherboard itself is bad.  Am I zeroing in on the right thing here?

The door being perhaps causing lack of water flow, if I understand correctly, once the water flows again it should cause the switch to tell the motherboard everything is ok and enable the heater again, right?  So I kind of doubt that is the real problem, though it could be what causes the switch to signal the motherboard initially that water flow is stopped, but when the switch tries to signal that water is flowing again, its not getting there. 

Do I have that about right?

Yea I don't see how a power outage could have anything to do with it but they tell me that they have other Sundance owners with similar issues and somehow they have concluded that a power outage while the pump is running could cause the motherboard to get stuck in this state somehow.  They said they have tried already quite a lot to figure out about this issue but haven't found a resolution, implying this is a design flaw in sundance spas.  I find it hard to believe sundance spas would be that sensitive to a power outage or that the motherboard could so easily get stuck in that state.  A wiring or flow switch issue seems far more likely to me for sure.

[Dewdman42]

another datapoint in case it matters,

when the scheduled filter cycle happened, the main pump did come on and the readout displayed the temperature looking normal and is running now.  I'm not sure what state it will be in after that.  Earlier this morning with the solid FLO indicator on, I tried to turn on the main pumps and they would not turn on at all, but the circ pump seemed to continue running

[Jacuzzi Jim]

When the spa shuts down, the electronics expect the Flow switch to "open" but the circuit board does not get THAT message, so it disables the system to prevent damage.  Lucky you, eh!

 and the problem is "temporarily" resolved until the next time the system shuts down, and the circuit board does not get the message. 

So what I take from your explanation is that the flow switch is supposed to send some kind of electrical signal back to the motherboard to let it know the switch is flowing water (not sure if that is open or closed).  For whatever the reason, this is not happening, either the switch is not sending it or the wires are not carrying it back to the motherboard, or the motherboard jumper connection is perhaps flakey in some way that would cause this electrical signal from the switch to not make it to the motherboard, or the motherboard itself is bad.  Am I zeroing in on the right thing here?

The door being perhaps causing lack of water flow, if I understand correctly, once the water flows again it should cause the switch to tell the motherboard everything is ok and enable the heater again, right?  So I kind of doubt that is the real problem, though it could be what causes the switch to signal the motherboard initially that water flow is stopped, but when the switch tries to signal that water is flowing again, its not getting there. 

Do I have that about right?

Yea I don't see how a power outage could have anything to do with it but they tell me that they have other Sundance owners with similar issues and somehow they have concluded that a power outage while the pump is running could cause the motherboard to get stuck in this state somehow.  They said they have tried already quite a lot to figure out about this issue but haven't found a resolution, implying this is a design flaw in sundance spas.  I find it hard to believe sundance spas would be that sensitive to a power outage or that the motherboard could so easily get stuck in that state.  A wiring or flow switch issue seems far more likely to me for sure.

  Only thing power wise I could see would be a fried board, this doesn't sound like the case.  A design flaw is absurd.   If they replace the flow switch and there is still a problem then they should look at the board next.      My money is on a bad flow switch. 

[Dewdman42]

yea supposedly that is the first thing they replaced before they replaced the circ pump.

This afternoon the scheduled filter cycle turned on, even though I was unable to turn on the main jets this morning with FLO message there, but at noon they came on for the filter cycle and heated up the hot tub to 106, which is higher then the max setting.  After that filter cycle ended, the FLO message is not there and things seem normal again with circ pump running, which sucks because the guy is going to come look at it tonight and wonder what the problem is.

This is very unnerving to have it so inconsistent and I have no way of knowing when the FLO will act up, or I might be out of town.

[Kev B]

 So both these guys are saying flow switch....that's what everyone goes for. Good luck, please let us know when you have the problem resolved and what it was.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Well if they replaced the circ and the flow switch.  Only thing left is the board.    But if it's working fine now I would just watch it and see what happens.   If it's going to mess up they usually will pretty quick. There are only so many things that cause a flow issue. 

[clover]

You are so far out in left field listening to those who are guessing.  Your frustration is showing, but you are not listening. 

DID THEY replace the flow switch?  NO?

Please allow me to explain why it IS the flow switch, to bad I don't get paid for this because this is a 15 minute fix for someone who has been there before.

First understand the operation of the flow switch.  The flow switch can be commonly referred to as a "sail switch", as the motion of water passing through the fitting pushes a flexible vein against the stem of the switch making a magnetic connection and the circuit board knows about it.  It is much like taking your fingers and making the V for victory sign.  The motion of water closes the fingers together and the magnetic connection is made.  In this case, the flow switch is not opening when the water stops, and is the root cause of your problem causing all functions to be disabled.  If you test the continuity of the leads for the switch, you will get a resistance reading when the water flow has stopped and the switch is presumably open.

The switch is in a transparent tee, and its operation is visible.  But, your eyes can not see the message the circuit board is receiving, while an ohm meter can.  The circuit board does not acknowledge the switch is open when the water flow stops, triggering the event, and confirmed by field testing when pulling the loom off and replacing it, opening the switch.  I have personally witnessed visually open switches that show resistance, and are thus the cause of the problem.  I have also found switches that the sail was stuck in connection with the stem of the switch verifying the problem visually.  I replaced it.  When I showed it to the owner and tapped the switch, the sail separated from the stem and the switch read open, as if it was OK.  I suppose I could have left it alone, simply tapping the switch for a temporary fix, but I will have to return soon, as it would be "an intermittent" problem.

When they replaced the circulation pump, the symptom was a "flashing flow", and that problem was resolved.  Your symptom now is a "Solid Flow" and functions are disabled.  The problem is, you have 2 function failures related to a similar message which is a head scratcher to most.  Depending on the knowledge of the person working on the problem, they could be contributing to the problem, and thus the reason I ask, did they replace the flow switch, and then I will ask how they did that.  You can not unscrew the switch apparatus from the fitting and install a new one.  You must replace the transparent tee complete.

It is a bad flow switch, that's why the functions don't work.  Replace the switch, and you're back in hot water and loving it.   

As for the filter gate, show me a picture of your gate and I will tell you how to correct the "slide" issue.  You will need to remove the sliding gate and install 4 clips referred to as bearings that will reduce the friction of the sliding operation and eliminate the sticking.  Your filter gate will have small screws securing caps on the top to prevent the removal of the gate, OR there are plastic clips at the top of the slide that will need to be remove to remove the gate.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

yea supposedly that is the first thing they replaced before they replaced the circ pump.

This afternoon the scheduled filter cycle turned on, even though I was unable to turn on the main jets this morning with FLO message there, but at noon they came on for the filter cycle and heated up the hot tub to 106, which is higher then the max setting.  After that filter cycle ended, the FLO message is not there and things seem normal again with circ pump running, which sucks because the guy is going to come look at it tonight and wonder what the problem is.

This is very unnerving to have it so inconsistent and I have no way of knowing when the FLO will act up, or I might be out of town.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

yea supposedly that is the first thing they replaced before they replaced the circ pump.

This afternoon the scheduled filter cycle turned on, even though I was unable to turn on the main jets this morning with FLO message there, but at noon they came on for the filter cycle and heated up the hot tub to 106, which is higher then the max setting.  After that filter cycle ended, the FLO message is not there and things seem normal again with circ pump running, which sucks because the guy is going to come look at it tonight and wonder what the problem is.

This is very unnerving to have it so inconsistent and I have no way of knowing when the FLO will act up, or I might be out of town.

  When I read this it sounds like they did replace it?   

[clover]

The symptoms don't lie, the flow switch is bad.  The word "supposedly" concerns me, and is not proof that it was replaced.  I doubt they did, IF they did replace it they could have screwed it up.

I am not sure whether they also replaced the FLO switch when they replaced the pump, ............. how I can get this hot tub working properly

[Dewdman42]

Yes they did replace the flow switch.  That was the first thing they did before they also replace the circ pump.

Could it have been done wrong or bad again, I suppose so.  It is magically all working now, so i will watch it a while.  Thing is, if there is a problem I need to catch it now under their warranty.  The fact that the FLO switch came on a few days ago, stayed on over night and into the morning and the pump buttons were non responsive until the filter cycle ran; is not really acceptable either.  What if that happens when I'm away, I live in sub freezing environment. 

I was watching the door outside the filter last night and it does constrain the water from getting in there sometimes when it gets a little jammed up on the sides.  It did not completely constrain the water, but enough that the water had to kind of waterfall over the door into the compartment while the main pumps were running.  So perhaps during a filter cycle the door is geting jammed up and causing the FLO indicator to come on.   I'm going to try to find a way to keep the door open all the time or just remove it.

I will take some photos later today so clover can advise me about the door.  I'm going to ask for very detailed description of what exactly they changed out on the flow switch, and I will relay it back here just for the sake of future education anyone having these kinds of problems. 

Thanks clover for your detailed explanations!