24/7 circ pump vs non 24/7 low speed pump for heating FF in cold climate

[Nessuno]

I have posted this in another forum, but it has received no responses. I hate double posting. Anyway,

I have read for hours about the "to circ pump or not to circ pump" debate in regards to filtration. But how does that debate apply to heating?

I have a 2000 Sundance 850 series Cameo. It has the 2-speed motor which feeds the circ pump which feeds the heater which feeds the Harlin Flow Switch. In 14 years I'm now on my 4 circ pump which is currently on order. It is winter here and quite cold outside and my circ pump decided to crap out, again. My tub currently is running without a functional circ pump. I have programmed the filter cycles to keep the low-speed pump on 24/7. I read somewhere that someone said a Sundance dealer told him to do this very thing in the cold months as a fail-safe system if the circ pump goes out. That way the heater will continue to operate. These tubs have the shell foam insulation. The cabinet/motor area is not insulated. I get worried about icing in this area. I had the tee of the flow switch crack one time when the tub turned off. I've read about motor propeller freeze ups too. Thinking about insulating this area somehow. Anyway,

1. Is there any harm in running the 2-speed pump on low 24/7 to use it to heat the tub?

2. In cold climates, is a 24/7 circulation pump preferrable if it is harmful to run the jet pump 24/7?

3. In cold climates, is cabinet insulation preferred to shell foam insulation so that the equipment is protected if the tub should lose power or there is no 24/7 pump? If you don't have cabinet insulation, should you run some pump 24/7?

4. On tubs without circ pumps, does the logic board tell the jet pump when to turn on to push water through the heater? I'm guessing the Sundance 850 board doesn't/can't do this?

5. If the Sundance 850 can be made to turn on the low-speed pump when heat is needed rather than run it 24/7, is there any reason that I can't simply bypass the circ pump and remove the troublesome thing?

I appreciate everyone's time and responses..

[jacuzzidude]

Seems like you are going to waste alot more energy using a full sized pump compared to a circ pump.  I would also question if the main pump is designed to work 24/7.  You may be replacing a main pump instead of a cheaper circ pump.   

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

1. Is there any harm in running the 2-speed pump on low 24/7 to use it to heat the tub? Temporarily not really a big deal, however it will get costly if that is your long term solution..and average jet pump on low speed (depending on size) can run approximately .12 - .20 cents per hour which based on .10kw/h (not sure what you pay for power in your area) could potentially cost you $3.00+ per day



2. In cold climates, is a 24/7 circulation pump preferrable if it is harmful to run the jet pump 24/7? A circ pump is more efficient and will maintain temperature taking that excess wear and tear off the jet pump and heater...regardless a 2 speed non circ pump spa will NOT run 24 hours, instead it will have a factory default (usually 2-4 hours of filtration/heat per day depending on manufacturer) or will only kick on to heat when needed (this is what some people don't realize when there buying a crappy spa, ya you saved $2,500 upfront but you also bought a spa that has little to no insulation which causes more wear and tear on your equipment and also costs more money on your energy bill, over the course of 10-12 years you've saved nothing in the end)



3. In cold climates, is cabinet insulation preferred to shell foam insulation so that the equipment is protected if the tub should lose power or there is no 24/7 pump? If you don't have cabinet insulation, should you run some pump 24/7? I'm from MN, trust me the more insulation the better...If you peak inside your cabinet and see "empty space" I would run to Home Depot, Lowe's, Menards, etc. and get yourself some insulation and "pack and stuff" as much as you can to aid in energy efficiency rather than run a pump for 24/7



4. On tubs without circ pumps, does the logic board tell the jet pump when to turn on to push water through the heater? I'm guessing the Sundance 850 board doesn't/can't do this?  Need a Sundance/Jacuzzi guy to comment


5. If the Sundance 850 can be made to turn on the low-speed pump when heat is needed rather than run it 24/7, is there any reason that I can't simply bypass the circ pump and remove the troublesome thing? depending on how its plumbed into the system it may not be worth the time or effort on a 14 year old spa or even realistically possible, to be honest I've never heard of someone ever wanting to get rid of a circ. pump..usually its the other way around "hey can i add a circ pump to this spa"

[Nessuno]

I agree, hence my posting. However, I did go back and find my original owner's manual for the tub from 14 years ago (call me a pack rat). It does say, in a very small paragraph, under winterization, when the temp is -20degrees, to reprogram the 4 filter cycles to run for 6 hours each. i.e. 24/7. So, I guess that means the 2-speed pump which is used for filtration is designed to run on low for 24/7, at least for extended periods.

The debate regarding 24/7 circ pumps vs 1-2hr jet pumps is a hot topic regarding filtration. But for this scenario, in an uninsulated service area because the tub is FF, during Winter, it seems you want something to run 24/7 to keep that water flowing through the uninsulated parts, particularly the flow switch and the thin tubing used on ozonators; even if the heater isn't running. I would think the answer would be a 24/7 circ pump and not a 24/7 jet pump, for cost reasons. However, at the rate the circ pumps need to be replaced, that may offset any cost savings they offer.

[Nessuno]

TwinCities: The Sundance 850 series does have 4 programmable filter cycles. The default is to run 6am, 12pm, 6pm, 12am, and to run each cycle for 30 minutes. But each cycle can be programmed up to 6 hours. Hence 24/7 on the jet pump. But I guess it will cost, so I will put in a new circ pump.

[Nessuno]

On a side note, many complain about the noise the jet pumps make vs a circ pump in regard to filtration. But I have to admit, I can hear the low hum of the motor working just outside my door so I know the tub is staying heated. 

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

On a side note, many complain about the noise the jet pumps make vs a circ pump in regard to filtration. But I have to admit, I can hear the low hum of the motor working just outside my door so I know the tub is staying heated. 

you're very unique sir  most people equate that noise to something that is costing them money, of course a tub with a silent circ pump is also costing you money but at least your can't hear it, haha 

[Tman122]

Its likely close to double or more for cost of parts over the extended period. And it cost more for KWH consumption. Look at it like a 100W incandescent light bulb and a blender. Ok, light bulb and a garbage disposal? Light bulb or a sump pump? Jet pumps will burn out faster when run 24/7 than a mag drive circ. run 24/7

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Laing-E10-Spa-Circulating-Pump-34-Barb-240V-P8253C300.aspx?UserID=106861536&SessionID=inYfqmi7uWteSj0F4snX

[Nessuno]

I did order a new circ pump, but not a Laing. I am working on the ozonator too, so with a circ pump, they kinda go hand in hand. I still find it interesting that Sundance, at least back in 2000, recommended running the filtration cycles 24/7 as a fail safe. Makes a person have a whole lotta confidence in circ pumps, don't it. I am going to be insulating that service area also. I appreciate your guys replies. Thanks for your input.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Roger, it's always been my understanding the the largest strain on a motor is simply in it starting it up (some 80% - 90% of the strain). If you never turn it off, it'll "run forever"...though at a huge cost

[Tman122]

HomePC your right. Ozone works better the more it's introduced to the water, 24/7
       
Doc yes you are correct, start up is the hardest part of any pumps life. But running a jet pump 24/7 will have a detrimental effect on seals, windings and impeller wear slowly wearing it out. 5-6-8 years of 2 hours a day running with all the start ups equals how many years of continuous running? Might only be a couple? And heat can have a huge effect on the longevity of a jet pump. The summers could do them in.

[Nessuno]

Through my research, I have heard the same thing DrSpa mentioned; that it's the startups that really wear a motor down. I did tear down an old Laing I had, and those things are unservicable. I imagine if a jet pump fails that you can at least repair it yourself if you are somewhat knowledgeable about AC motors (windings, magnets, brushes, etc...) and wet-ends. That 2-speed pump has about 10 years on it. I think while the tub was still under warranty the original went out. However, it seems that the circ pumps are designed to run 24/7 whereas the jet pumps really are not.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I was only considering the actual motor, not the rest of the pump (wet end). As Roger says, there's probably a LOT of excessive wear to the seals and impeller.