Wireing Options on Optima?

[DaveMc]

Sundance Optima offers 23 wiring options
1. 50 amp---- heater will not engage when both pumps are running
2. 60 amp----Heater will operate while both pumps are running
3. I don't know
I am running #4 -2 hot's + neutral and a #8 ground to a subpanel near the tub (150' run) in 1-1/4 schedule 40 pvc and #6 (hot hot ground) from sub to the hot tub.  So with this configuration I have the option of going with 60 amp GFCI or 50 amp GFCI at the sub.  The advantage is #2 above the disadvantage is the cost of a 60 amp GFCI.
Which way would the expert's go??

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

It's been a bit since I've looked in the NEC (code book), and there may have been some recent changes, however, codes for pools and spas, which are different than regular/general codes (use to) call for the ground wire being the same size as the hot legs (most inspectors are unaware of this specific code and will allow you to go ONE size smaller). I also don't believe you can increase the size of the ground wire from the sub (disconnect) to the hot tub.

[DaveMc]

So you are making me aware of 2 requirements
1. ground wire from spa to sub panel gfci then on to main service panel  NOT be reduced in size---ie: #6 spa to gfci sub must be a #6 or larger sut to main.
2.  Ground wire to spa from main service to sub panel an on to spa must be as large or larger than feeders to spa from sub (in my case #6A)
So where it is OK for a sub panel (3-#4 hot hot neutral and one # 8 ground)---it is NOT ok for a spa connection---correct?

[DaveMc]

Here is what forum member "Stubbie" had to say to another question----regarding grounding and wire size: "That is fine be sure you use conduit all the way to the spa control panel. Liquid tight is common from the spa panel back to the spa control panel. Your equipment ground wire must be insulated green and can be #10 awg copper, neutral insulated white, the hot conductors can be black insulated all should be #6 awg."

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I'm reading this as, from the breaker main panel, your feeding the spa disconnect (you're calling this a "sub panel", but since it's ONLY feeding the spa, it technically isn't a sub panel).

In the USA there's what's called the National Electric Codes (NEC). Most municipalities adopt these codes...some are many years behind current codes, some add their own or make some of the codes more stringent. There are a number of electric codes SPECIFICALLY for pools and spas that are DIFFERENT that the "normal" electric codes. MANY electricians, and even building inspectors are either unaware of, or misinterpret these codes. While liquid tight is common to be used, there is a MAXIMUM length, by code, it can be run. I believe it's 6 feet, though it may be 3. But again, you may be able to get away with doing something differently if no one catches it, or is aware of this limitation.

The ground wire must be capable of carrying the same amperage as the hot wires. A smaller wire will not do this. The potential, with a direct short, is that the smaller ground wire will melt before the breaker trips, and now the spa wont be grounded. (FYI, you CAN run a smaller neutral wire, but most inspectors wont allow it without you proving it's acceptable).


Remember, just because you read it on the internet, it's not necessarily true....and I may not be completely correct in my responses (the codes do change every year, and it's been a few years since I've seen the code book...and any municipality is free to adopt what ever codes they "feel like")

[DaveMc]

Well "Dr Spa" I am going with your opinion over a few others and I changed my #8 ground to a #6---at a phenomenal cost increase of $31.00 for a 155 foot run!
Your answer makes sense and the other guy while informative just kept quoting the code "60 amp = #10 ground"---not mentioning de-rating or distance or the fact that the #6 ground at the spa control box would become smaller on the way to the main service via the "disconnect"!
Thanks for your knowledge and input---much appreciated--and I caught the order in time to change my #8 to #6 green jacked ground!

[speedy petey]

Well, the reason the code kept being quoted was because it is CORRECT. I'm not sure what more can be said. I am curious as to what code Dr. Spa is referring to.
It's interesting that you will take the advice of a retired spa installer who admits he has not looked at the NEC in a while over the advice of several working licensed electrical professionals. 

True, if you upsize the current carrying conductors you must upsize the ground, but NOT to the full size of the CCC's.

Dr. Spa, may I suggest you reacquaint yourself with the up to date NEC that you said you haven't looked at in a bit. You may find things that interest you.
This quote: "Remember, just because you read it on the internet, it's not necessarily true...." really holds true in this thread.

A few points:
- Grounds are NOT sized "ONE size smaller". They are sized according to NEC T250.122.
- Liquidtite is NOT limited to 6' or 3'. There is NO limit to length. Metallic liquidtite is limited to 6' where the internal metllic lining is used as a grounding conductor, but that's a different story.
- The equipment ground does NOT have to "be capable of carrying the same amperage as the hot wires". That is not the intended purpose of an equipment ground. Fault current is vastly different from circuit current.

[DaveMc]

Well, I have been waiting all day for Dr Spa to back me up here--but--I suppose it ain't going to happen!
Sorry if I am being perceived as dissing the Electricians---whom I have a lot of respect for---but my order was in and I had to make a quick decision--and the cost was small.
I did earlier this year depend on you guys for a "sub panel" 175 feet from my house and service and there I installed 4 # 4 and one #8 ground--and all went fine--inspected just fine--so your input helped.
I thought tho that since "spa's are different" that I should opt for the larger ground---basically I just couldn't get over the fact that if I didn't I would be reducing the ground from #6 to # 8 or 10 on the way to my main service and I could agree with the reduction--made no logical sense why I would need #6 (per ;mfg) at the spa but #10 at the main service---larger going to smaller made no logical sense--so that is why I opted to overkill.
Thanks again to all of you for your input----

[Jacuzzi Jim]

    Sounds like you went with number 6? Which is fine.   Funny thing is on the spa and at the GFCI you have to trim enough wire off just to fit the ground wire into the hole.  I also hope they let you know or you read it, that you will only need 3 wires from the GFCI to the spa?  2 loads and a ground.  You will probably have to trim some wire off the leads going into the spa pac as well. 

[DaveMc]

Jim, I went with the 3 #4---- hot hot neutral and one#6 ground from main service to spa gfci and from the GFCI shut off to the spa with 3 #6 hot hot ground---now I am trying to figure out how to re-jump the board to have the 60 amp option at the spa--I have a vertical right side jumpers 1-5-8 &10---W_B_W_B respectively---can I get a picture and instructions on which wire should go where to get 60 amp option activated?

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 An Optima for the most part is a Jacuzzi J-470 to change to the 60 amp you should do it through the topside control, not the actual board like we use to.   Unless they have not changed it in the Sundance line, which I would find hard to believe..   

[DaveMc]

I can find nothing in the ownerts manuel referring to 50 amp vs 60 amp features activated by the digital controls on the top of the tub.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Well if you can see the actual circuit board ? Then the instructions should be on the back side of the control box cover.

 On Jacuzzi if I remember right jumpers 5&6 are 50 amp then move jumper to 7&8?

 Found it on-line  Page 83 jump 9&7 for 60 amp logic

[Jacuzzi Jim]

JP19-1 On = °C Off = °F
JP19-3 On = 50 Hz Off = 60 Hz
JP19-5 On = Enables the logic for the Multi-Color LED Light
Off = Enables the logic for the Incandescent Light
JP19-7 Not used
JP19-9 Not used
JP19-11 On = (4.0 Logic) Enables 2-speed pump 1 logic
Off = (2.0 Logic) Enables 1-speed pump 1 logic
JP9-1 On = Enables the trouble log
Off = Disables the trouble log
JP9-3 Not Used
JP9-5 Not used
JP9-7
On = Enables 60A logic (Allows 2 jets pumps and the heater
to operate at the same time)
Off = Enables 50A logic (Forces the heater to turn off when
more than 1 jets pump is running)
JP9-9 On = 2 or 3-Pump logic Off = 1 Pump logic
JP9-11
On = Enables 40A logic (Forces heater to turn off in any jets
pump is running in high speed or if the blower is on
Off = Disables 40A logic
JP9-13 On = (2.0 logic only) Allows only one jets pump and the
blower to operate at the same time
Off = Allows blower, jets pump 1 and jets pump 2 to operate
at the same time
JP9-15

[DaveMc]

I see no way to post a photo here too bad!
I looked at the back of the panel cover---you were correct--I have a "TB401" strip which has "Ports" 1 through 11---where white and black wire(s) are---at present they are in position----1-White to pump 1, 5 Black to pump 1 and 8 White to pump 2 , 10 Black to pump 2. 
There is a note on the panel that says "Installing jumper in position JP 9-7 requires upgraded electrical service. Consult your dealer.
My basic math tells me that there are several possibilities here and most will be wrong---nothing tells me which wire, which color comes off which number and goes to which new number!!!!!!!
I am a simple person I need an authority to say "black wire on strip TB401 port 5 to go from that port to strip TB401 port 7"---