Question on proper way of sanitizing

[ducru]

I have seen several posts on the topic of sanitizing, but nothing has answered the questions I have, to the point that I am comfortable with the issue. I have a new hot tub (Jacuzzi 345) and am stumped when it comes to keeping the water safe and clean.  As I'm sure is the case with most, I don't want to soak in a chemical bath, but I don't want to make myself (or others) sick from bacteria.  I was sold this tub with unclear directives on how to keep the water safe.  Everyone attached to the buying process, seems to have his/her own take on it.  So here is my situation: I live in Canada, and am using lithium as a sanitizer.  Generally speaking, I was told that I should add lithium (diluted with spa water) after bathing, at a rate of 1 TBSP per 2 bathers, to a maximum of 4 tbsps. at a time.  I was also told that I should add 1 tbsp. every 3-4 days if the hot tub is not being used, and shock the water only when the water is looking ''Off''. I am using AquaCheck strips and have little trouble reading the levels.  What I don't understand, is that by following the above-mentioned sanitizing program, I am bathing in little to no chlorine (0-.5 ppm of FC), as it evaporates between the night before when I added the lithium and the time I enter the spa. Is this the proper way of doing this ?  The ''common agreed'' explanation (I was able to gather) being that you kill all bacteria at night, cover the spa and by the time you use it, the water is clean and with little residual chlorine. Also, aside from sanitizing and just as a general tidbit of knowledge, can you also advise if there is an order to add the various other chemicals and how long one should wait before entering the hot tub, after chemicals have been added ? Thanks for you input; it's very much appreciated.

[Quickbeam]

Sorry, I can’t help you with your question on sanitizing as I use an alternate sanitizer, but did you know that you also need to balance your water? I won’t go into detail on it, as you didn’t directly ask about this and you may already know what you have to do. I’ll include this weblink (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19149) as it has a great write up on lowering TA to stabilize your PH. If you need any help on balancing the water, let us know and we’ll help you with that as well. And by the way, we are also fairly new owners of the J-345. Is a great tub!

[ducru]

Yes, it's a really nice tub, I agree.  I am balancing the water without too much trouble, as this is more straightforward.  Your PH level is either OK or it is not.  You can watch as it slowly creeps up or down over time. It's the sanitizing that's confounding me, as it has a direct bearing on your family's health, whereas the rest has more of a bearing on your spa and the material side of things. Thanks for your input. 

[Kev B]

 You may want to check into a mineral purifier to go in conjunction with your method of sanitation. It lasts for four months so therefore is replaced every time you change water. Your method of purification is fine for one or two people but you must remain faithful to it even if you are not using it. If you have a gathering of people you may want to add sanitizer before and after event...keep those filters very clean.
 Check out the natureII  mineral purifier.

[ducru]

Hi Kev B. is the mineral purifier one of those Narur2 spa clarifiers ?  I have one of those and the Jacuzzi 345 also has the Clearray system, which supposedly kills bacteria on a continual basis. I have not run into foul looking/smelling water, but I've only had the spa for 2 weeks.  I guess I would like to know how to keep it clear and safe and not just base it on a happy coincidence.  I'm just not comfortable with the numbers I should be aiming for, both when adding sanitizer and when getting into the hot tub. Thanks for your reply.

[chem geek]

The problem sounds like your dealer hasn't a clue when it comes to chlorine chemistry.  Lithium hypochlorite has no Cyanuric Acid (CYA) so the chlorine is FAR too strong in active concentration so it outgases faster which degrades the cover faster and it also reacts faster in the water with anything it can react with including swimsuits, skin, and hair (when the chlorine is still present).  Lithium hypochlorite is also the most expensive form of chlorine.

Instead I suggest you either use the Dichlor-only or Dichlor-then-bleach method.  Dichlor-only is what most spa stores recommend, but it builds up CYA over time which makes the chlorine less effective so you need to change the water more frequently compared to Dichlor-then-bleach.  However, because Dichlor is net acidic, Dichlor-only is easier for some people to manage the pH.

By the way, if you don't mind paying more and don't want to use bleach, you can use Dichlor-then-Lithium instead.  With the Dichlor-then-bleach or Dichlor-then-Lithium method you start out using Dichlor initially until you build up 30-40 ppm CYA which will happen when you've cumulatively added 33-44 ppm FC.  After that you switch to bleach or lithium hypochlorite.  If you go months without changing the water, then you use Dichlor once a month to replenish CYA that is slowly lost (it drops at around 5 ppm per month).  Because bleach and lithium hypochlorite are not net acidic, you'll want to lower your Total Alkalinity (TA) to around 50 ppm before you switch to using those sources of chlorine and you should probably use 50 ppm borates (most easily added by using boric acid) for additional pH buffering.

As for how much to dose, with no ozonator (it sounds like you have UV but no ozonator), every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) spa requires roughly 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 3-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS -- used in Nature2 with its silver ions) to oxidize bather waste.  The actual rule is to use whatever is needed to still have a small residual 24 hours later or when you next soak or dose.  The 1 tablespoon of lithium hypochlorite recommended by your dealer is roughly equivalent to 63% that amount of Dichlor so roughly 1.9 or nearly 2 teaspoons and would handle roughly 30 person-minutes of soaking.  So their rule for 2 people would only work if you only soaked for around 15 minutes.  Their recommendation sounds like it is not dosing enough.

If you have never decontaminated your spa, then I suggest you remove the greases, oils, and biofilm typically in a new spa by using Ahh-Some just before your next water change (which will likely be soon since you haven't done this step already).

[buba]

What chem geek said plus....
 
Link to an article on lithium as a sanitizer

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6641

The Jacuzzi brand mineral purifier is a Nature2 based product. Zodiac packaged their product in a plastic case designed to mount to the circulation filter cap on the Jacuzzi tubs. Since it is a Nature2 based product it requires dichlor (chlorine) to activate it. I am not sure if lithium would activate it in the same manner that dichlor would. You would have to contact the Nature2 folks to answer that question.

The Frog Mineral sticks claim to work with both chlorine and bromine sanitizers and drop inside the circulation filter.
 

[Vinny]

I agree with what chem geek said but I do want to add since I use mostly dichlor that only using it will still kill bacteria even after a long time. Using dry chemicals is way easier for me especially in the winter. If you don't want to blast the tub with dichlor for shocking then use non chlorine shock but remember to shock with chlorine every so often or use bleach for the shocking. You need to change the water every so often (2-4 months) and that is part of the equation in water care.

Bacteria tend to be more delicate than algae so even with a highish stabilizer the chlorine will still be killing the bacteria just not as quickly/effectively.

You do have the concept correct but you do need to make sure you are using the correct amount to obtain 3-4 PPM (more than that with more people) when you do dose. Using chlorine after you use it only applies to when you are using it alone or with a few (2 to 4) other people ... a party situation is a whole other story.

[ducru]

Thanks for all the great feedback.  I'm thinking that based on Chem Geeks answers, I should be increasing my dosing to + - 1 tbsp per person per 30 minutes bathed.  I think this will bring the level up to the goal of 3-4 ppm mentioned by Vinny. 

But, what I' m still not clear on, is at what level should the chlorine  be when we bathe on the following day, if our previous evening's dose brought the level up to 3-4 ppm ?  Since the lithium evaporates, is it normal that the level is below 1 ppm when we get in on the following day ? Should I also be adding  more prior to soaking, so that I can get the levels up to 1-2 ppm ?

[Vinny]

The idea is by the time you get into the tub the bacteria was killed by the dose and can't get a foot hold due to the residual chlorine. You can soak in whatever chlorine concentration you want. In the scenario you mentioned you are looking to soak in as lttle as possible. What will happen depending on bacteria/bather load the chlorine will be less or more the next day. Go into the tub right after a shower and naked will be less of a load than going in sweaty with a "used" pair of shorts on. You still want to shoot for the 3 ppm level (i actually would shoot higher for the sweaty load) so that you have enogh to kill the bacteria. 24 hours later you could be at 2 ppm because the bacteria load (or extra chlorine) didn't dissipate.

[ducru]

I think I have a handle on what I'm trying to achieve.  The only issue I have, is that on some evening's I have tested the water after adding he lithium and I am up around 7-8 ppm of chlorine, but by the next evening, when we're ready to go for a soak, both the FC and residual chlorine are down to almost nothing (.5 ppm).  Is this normal ?  Is there something I'm doing wrong ?

[Vinny]

You aren't doing anything wrong but you may have a larger bacteria/bather load that you think. For me if I put 7-8 PPM of chlorine in the tub and only I go into the tub then there probably would be close to 4 PPM. I also have to question test strips measuring accurately let alone a 7-8 PPM chlorine level. Typically that high a dose is considered a shock dose and shock doses tend to linger.

In case you didn't know, chlorine not only kills bacteria but also oxidizes things in the water so if you go in with body products, freshly laundered bathing suit or anything else that comes off/falls into the hot water chlorine will try to do something to it and be used up. If your test strips (and most people do not like test strips for testing water) don't show combined or total chlorine there is no way to figure out if your chlorine is being dissipated by the hot water or being used up fighting something. If you can measure combined chlorine then you have a way to see what the chlorine is doing ... very little combined chlorine = not much load; a lot of combined chlorine = heavy load, you need to shock and will smell typically have the chlorine smell.

I use Dichlor and other than the stabilizer there's not much difference in what you are using. The stabilizer may help a little in hot water in keeping the chlorine around a little longer. I have used bleach but it is so inconvenient for me to use that I stick with dichlor. It could be the strips you are using are not giving you the whole story of what's happening to your tub. Being a new tub it is possible that the tub's pipes are dirty and you are using a lot of chlorine to kill off the bacteria that was left. If you go in "dirty" that will be a heavy load for the chlorine to combat. If you use a lot of lotions/body products the hoyt water s stripping them from you and the chlorine is eating them up. Maybe you are battling a high combined chlorine and if the strips are reading correctly the chlorine is being used up burning that away.