Mistake on a Grandee scale.

[NZArtist]

What a disaster...
In February of 2013 I purchased a Hotspring Grandee spa. I decided on Hotspring because they're supposed to be high quality (ha!).  I decided on the Grandee because friends like to visit.  And I decided on the Ace saltwater chlorination system because the sales-person convinced me it would take my maintenance time down. In New Zealand this is $25,950 worth of spa (USD$22,000)

On a positive note... The spa was delivered on time, and the man with the Hiab truck who had to hoist the spa over the roof of the house was magnificent.  He placed it in exactly the right spot.
We filled and balanced the spa.  And then I discovered the first problem.  A 1200W heater is *way* under powered for this behemoth.  It took two days to get to temperature. Seriously, the kettle in my kitchen is 2200 Watts - almost twice as powerful as this spa.  If you have a spa in winter you'll be shivering in the water after an hour.  Sooner with more people or if you run the jets.
A few days after the spa was installed we had a wind storm, and I discovered the next problem with this spa.  The latches on the cover straps are useless, and the cover straps are very weak and can tear easily.  At 3:00am in the wind and rain I had to strap the spa cover down with nylon webbing ratchet tie-downs because it had unlatched from two corners, and torn off the other two straps when the cover lifter slid the cover back.  I've since replaced those crappy straps with nylon webbing straps, and better latches.
The next problem is the Ace salt water cells.  I've had *two* fail in 18 months.  These cost $800 a piece. When this spa comes out of warranty the running costs are going to be prohibitive.  Of course the official Hotspring chemicals are also prohibitively expensive.  The service technician had the gall to suggest I wasn't maintaining the spa correctly. Both times I've run through the maintenance routine I have with him and neither time has be been able to say I've been neglecting anything.  This isn't the first spa I've owned.
In servicing the Ace cell we noticed that the plumbing for this spa is leaking in two places - looks like the same seal on each of the two pump motors is crap.  Apparently this is a common problem.

The Hotspring Grandee spa is a giant waste of money.  It was overpriced to start with, and the running costs are prohibitive.  And it's not even a very good spa!  The heater is *way* underpowered, the design with all the jets and 'water features' is silly - no-one ever uses them anyway.  I only bought this model because it was *big*.  The quality is terrible.  The Ace system is a joke.
Regretting wasting the money.
DONT BUY THIS SPA!

[Chas]

The pump seals are covered under the five-year warranty.

Ask your dealer if he will 'trade in' your ACE for the Freshwater III ozone system. It is nowhere near as high tech, but it works just fine and will not cost as much.

I am not sure if the units I have here will work on your power - I'll check if you are interested, but I could send you an ozone for about a quarter of what you quoted for just an ACE cell.

BTW - I have had five or six Grandee tubs - never regretted one. I love that model, and all of mine have worked just right. I have SOLD dozens and dozens, people have loved them. Keep in mind, here our tubs have 4KW heaters. Some of the HS models have 6KW heaters here - depends on the size of the pump motors. I wish I had an answer for you on that 1000 watt heater.

HTH

 

[wmccall]

I would say Welcome to the forum, but I fear your only here to bash the spa and move on. Oh, heck Welcome to the forum.  Dozens or so Grandee tub owners her would disagree with your generalization.  However, I do have to ask the group, or people in the know,  1.2kw heater? Could that be true? That would seem to be seriously under powered.

[Isaac-1]

I too would like to say welcome, and it sounds as if your complaints are mainly regarding the Ace system and the under sized heater your spa was equiped with.  You are not the first to complain about the Ace system, it does seem to be a work in progress on the part of Hot Spring, but at least they seem to be trying to fix the problems, so hopefully by the time your warranty runs out they will have most of the bugs worked out.  As to the heater I do know Hot Spring  uses under sized heaters on some of their export models, this is done because houses in certain countries tend to have MUCH smaller electrical services than the U.S. standard domestic 150 or now 200 amp 120/240V service, in some places this may be as little as a 30 amp service for an entire house.  I suspect upgrading the size of your heater would solve many of your problems assuming your electrical service can support it.

[Pers Onal]

What type of voltage and current supply do you have available at the main power supply service entrance?

A quick search indicates you have 230/240 volt AC for standard residential power but does not indicate common panel sizes.

What amp service do you have at the main and what do you have capability to get to the tub?

[clover]

What a disaster.....I decided on Hotspring because they're supposed to be high quality (ha!).....I decided on the Grandee because friends like to visit.  And I decided on the Ace saltwater chlorination system because the sales-person convinced me it would take my maintenance time down.....

On a positive note... The spa was delivered on time, and.....placed it in exactly the right spot.....then I discovered the first problem.  A 1200W heater is *way* under powered..... A few days after the spa was installed we had a wind storm, and I discovered the next problem with this spa.  The latches on the cover straps are useless, and the cover straps are very weak and can tear easily.....it had unlatched from two corners, and torn off the other two straps when the cover lifter slid the cover back.....the next problem is the Ace salt water cells.  I've had *two* fail in 18 months.....These cost $800 a piece. When this spa comes out of warranty the running costs are going to be prohibitive.....The service technician had the gall to suggest I wasn't maintaining the spa correctly. Both times I've run through the maintenance routine I have with him and neither time has be been able to say I've been neglecting anything.,,,,In servicing the Ace cell we noticed that the plumbing for this spa is leaking in two places - looks like the same seal on each of the two pump motors is crap.  Apparently this is a common problem.

The Hotspring Grandee spa is a giant waste of money.  It was overpriced to start with, and the running costs are prohibitive.  And it's not even a very good spa!  The heater is *way* underpowered, the design with all the jets and 'water features' is silly - no-one ever uses them anyway.  I only bought this model because it was *big*.  The quality is terrible.  The Ace system is a joke.
Regretting wasting the money.
DONT BUY THIS SPA!

Welcome NZArtist,  POST # 1 seems to be filled with anger and regret, and does not ask for a single recommendation for solving a problem, or seeking advice, but it does seem to be a vendetta reflecting great disappointment, I get that.  You are disgruntled to say the least over your decision during the evaluation process.

• You emphasize the cost of the ACE system that has been replaced twice, were they replaced under the warranty? or did they cost you $800 each?  Any water maintenance system, in any hot tub requires attention and understanding.  It seems obvious the "water" did not meet your expectations.  With so many friends using the spa, how can you begin to judge what they are putting into the water during their soak, remember, everyone gets out squeaky clean.
• Pump seals are subject to the conditions under which they operate.  If they run without water they will fail, and that would be a common problem, could this have contributed to the failure, and were they replaced under warranty?
• As for the cover latches, they do not unlatch themselves, and when different people open the cover, it is a common problem for them to "forget, or not think" to unlatch the back latches when opening the cover.  Of course they are going to rip and tear determined by the force exerted if they are not unlatched when sliding the cover back with a force greater than their strength.  This is hardly a fault of the cover, but certainly a disappointment to the owner.
• Now you speak of your choice disparagingly claiming it is overpriced, not even a good spa that you only wanted because it was "big", and the amenities are "silly", but still you spent a very large sum of money.  I am puzzled how this passed your evaluation process during your shopping experience.
• As for the under powered heater, Isaac-1 makes a very good point worthy of recognizing.  What is the maximum amp capacity in your electrical service?  And if you think your running cost are "prohibitive" now, do you think a larger heater is going to make you happy?

First, I am not defending a brand, but you must have been happy at some point during this process, but you are certainly filled with anger now.  With 10's of thousand of Grandee's in service, it is so hard to understand how one could be so deficient, but apparently it must be yours. 

HOW CAN WE HELP YOU?

[GGRANDEE]

Clover, you are spot on!! I have owned a Grandee for over a year now and it has exceeded my expectations. Sorry to hear NZArtist is experiencing big problems, but I sure am glad I live in NY

[NZArtist]

The Cells were replaced under warranty.  Warranty runs out in six months. I've had two cells in 18 months. I extrapolated the ongoing costs out of warranty will be $800 every nine months for a replacement cell.  The branded Hotspring chemicals are outrageous - for example the 1kg of salt required on refilling the spa is circa US$22.  Generic brand is circa $1.00 per kg.
The pump has never been operated without water.  I rarely run the jets at all because it cools the spa too quickly.  They're mostly run for a cleaning cycle (about once every two days, or when several people have used the spa).
I check the chemical balance of the spa once a week.  Clean the filters once a month.  Clean the cell once.... but it fails before I get to the second cleaning.  I drain, scrub, refill, and rebalance the spa once every six months.
The power supply here is 240V, 100 Amp, and I got a 25 Amp dedicated supply wired to the spa.  As the heater doesn't run at the same time as the jets there is *oodles* of spare capacity.  Even my kitchen kettle can have twice as powerful a heater than this spa, apparently.  (By Breville appliances.  They're excellent.) .  The cost of running a more powerful heater will only be marginally higher than running the underpowered one because it will only be running when the spa is under temperature.  The powerful one will still pump the same Joules of energy into the water to raise the temperature.  It will just do it faster.  The advantages will be after refilling the spa - hours instead of days.  And soaking in the winter where it will keep the water warmer for longer.
The cover latches were definitely latched.  I checked them myself before bed as it was starting to get windy.  The design is poor and the ones I used to replace (different brand of spa) have been flawless.  The vinyl straps are flimsy and ripped in half. The replacement nylon webbing straps are much more robust.
No, my friends aren't dirty. Thanks for the suggestion.
No, the water quality here isn't bad.  It's rainwater, triple-filtered and UV sterilized, before it even got to the spa. The softening teabag didn't even realize it was in water, it's so soft.  The indicator strips flash on the setting "Fluffy Kitten Soft" when I use them, every week.
Yes, I spent a large sum of money.  I was fooled by the marketing buzz.  I was also fooled by the excellent quality of my cheaper spa which I owned for years.  It had two shortcomings - too small and thrice-weekly balancing.  I kind of thought (stupidly, I readily admit!) a more expensive brand would have the basic functionality well established, while giving me the added features of larger size and less maintenance time.  I really didn't expect the name-brand spa to have such poor quality.
Okay, I got the lemon. The spa made on the Friday before the long weekend.  I also got the two lemon Ace cells.  Looking forward to the third Ace cell having been made on a Tuesday.  I also got the salespeople and technicians made on a Friday who keep assuming it's something I'm doing to the spa (or my filthy friends).

As I say, this isn't the first spa I've owned.  And I guess it wont be the last.  But the next one sure as hell wont be a Hotspring spa. 

[NZArtist]

I would say Welcome to the forum, but I fear your only here to bash the spa and move on. Oh, heck Welcome to the forum.  Dozens or so Grandee tub owners her would disagree with your generalization.  However, I do have to ask the group, or people in the know,  1.2kw heater? Could that be true? That would seem to be seriously under powered.

The forum is named "What's the best hot tub".  If I'm having a bad experience with a brand of hot tub isn't this the perfect place to let others know?
In keeping with the mission of this forum:  The Grandee hot tub from Hotspring is *so* not the best hot tub.
And regarding the heater...  Yes.  Yes it's true.  The heater is around half the power of my kitchen kettle (which runs happily off a 10Amp standard 240V wall socket and can be purchased from any appliance store).
Power is Volts x Amps.  Amps = Power / Volts.  My 2200W kettle uses around 9 amps.  The 1200 W heater in my spa uses 5 amps.  The spa heater doesn't run while the jets are running (according to the Hotspring spec sheet) so I have 20 spare amps lying around wondering why I spent the money on the upgraded supply.

Okay, look, I really don't begrudge the actual money. I regret looking like an idiot.  I regret the added stress of wondering when I'll have to clean out the black flakes spat into the pool from the Ace cell.  I regret my friends being 'understanding' about the spa instead of just enjoying it.  I regret the water going cold when I'm listening to Jazz under the stars with friends.  I regret the fact I've had to re-engineer aspects of the spa when I spent the money specifically to avoid that.  I regret dealing with technicians and salespeople who treat me like an idiot for the faults in their spa, when they should be treating me like an idiot for buying their brand.  I regret my experience with the hardware poisoning my relaxation in the spa. This thing is causing me stress which is the antithesis of its intended purpose.  I regret buying the name brand instead of the local generic brand.

Money is just money.  It's all the other stuff that's annoying me.

[NZArtist]

Action plan:

1) After this weekend (I have a guest staying who will probably enjoy a spa), drain the spa and get the pump seals replaced.
2) In six months the spa will be out of warranty.  There's a 3kW after-market heater available. What will I wreck on the spa if I upgrade the heater?
3) If the current replacement Ace cell fails again in 8 months, when the spa will be out of warranty, I'm going to ditch the Ace system. What can I replace it with and what's going to go wrong? What're the pros, cons, and maintenance issues with whatever comes next?

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

so your supplying 25 amps to a spa that requires 50 amps?

[NZArtist]

so your supplying 25 amps to a spa that requires 50 amps?

Where do you get the 50 Amps figure?  I'm on a 240 V supply here.  If you double the voltage you halve the current and get the same power.

[Isaac-1]

In the US our electrical system is somewhat different, we have 120/240V split single phase supplied to households, most small appliances are run on 120V, and larger appliances, ovens, water heaters, dryers, etc are run on 240V.  Here Hot Spring offers some of their smaller tubs set up to be convertible between 120V at 20 amps, or 240V at 50 amps, these tubs have a heater that works at 1,500 watts at 120V or 6,000 watts at 240V, at 120V they  turn off when the jets run, or the electronics can be configured to run at 240V and run the heaters full time at 6,000 watts even when the jets run if 50 amps at 240V is available  (technically most of these tubs are wired with 2 breakers, a 120V 20 amp for the 120V motors and a 240V 30 amps for the heater ).  The simple and perhaps first step may be to upgrade the electrical wiring to the site where your tub is located to handle running pumps and existing heater at the same time, this is probaby a simple matter of a jumper change either in softeware or hardware depending on the age of your tub.

The above example is somewhat generic as it does vary by model on exactly how the electrical connection is done here.

As to heaters you might consider importing a US 240V Hot Spring heater that runs at 5,000 or 6,000 watts.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

North America / Western Hemisphere  has a rather unusual electrical supply than the rest of the world. In Europe, and I believe New Zealand, the electrical supply is 230v 50hz (North America is 240v 60hz [hz refers to the number of cycles the electricity "alternates" per second]). Additionally, the 230v supply consists of a SINGLE hot wire at 230v, and a neutral wire (and get this, in some countries the hot wire is WHITE, and the neutral BLACK). I've seen plenty of homes in Italy, Great Briton and France that ONLY have a 30 amp main service (for those of you outside the US, a 100 amp service is about the lowest here in the US, 200 amps is very common...and I've seen up to 400 amp services)..

[Tman122]

I have a 200 amp panel and a 100 amp panel in my house/garage.

Fix the heater and seals and ditch the salt water. Your seals/tub will last longer. Dichlor and bleach.