Need reply from Chas and Bruce-HS

[spayogi]

This guy doesn't seem to care for HS. Can Chas or Bruce set the record straight?
Reply To This Message
Re: How long should a HS tub last?
Author: stuart (63.227.141.---)
Date:   06-11-04 17:00

I was going to stay out of this one but Freds usual childish comments have baited me in!

I have posted many times that Hotspring has a tendency to develop microcraze cracks in the endurol that can eventually crack through. Because they have no fiberglass behind the shell this will cause leaks. Hotspring's repair for this is to FIBERGLASS the back of the cracked area! Why don't they just do that in the beginning? Oh, they also posted a notice to all of their dealers that these small hairline cracks are a “Natural part of the ageing process of that material” and won’t be warranted unless they leak! It’s like saying the paint on your new Porsche will crack but sorry it is a natural part of the ageing!

Hotspring’s circ pumps will fail before any other pump in system because of the closed loop, Marquis found this out about 8 years ago and went away from the circ pump.

Hotspring pillows will usually last less than 3 years before they need replaced, Marquis stopped this many years ago when they asked the question - What's more important, a soft bacteria collector that will eventually deteriorate or a molded head rest to lean back on?

Hotspring jets with those 4 little 1/8 in prongs typically need replaced in 4 or 5 years because they start falling out. Marquis and many other manufactures use a jet designed by one of the largest plastics vendors in the industry and don't try to manufacture their own jet to save money. BTW the paten was up on the moto massage jet a few years ago, why hasn't anyone else picked it up if it was so good?

Just about every Hotspring cabinet in the county that was exposed to sunlight in the last few years turned Mary Kay pink! Hotspring’s answer was to say in their warranty "exclusive of surface stain" isn't it sold as a "maintenance free" material?
While we're on the subject of warranty, if Hotspring outlasts Marquis then why is their warranty "non-transferable"? Shouldn't you believe in the product regardless of who owns it? Oh, and those pillows I talked about have no warranty! Neither does the filter lid, Marquis covers theirs.

I certainly don't remember Marquis having to recall 148,000 heaters for potential fire hazard like Hotspring did!

How about the tile? Hotspring dealers tell you that it is a similar material to the endurol yet they specifically state that it is only warranted for 1 year. Are they afraid it won't last longer? Marquis tried it, didn’t like it and moved on.

I don't dislike Hotspring and quite often refer people to look at both manufactures but don't make an infantile statement that Marquis will fail two decades before Hotspring.

[Rboehme]

You left out this part of his post.


"David,
I apologize for attacking your research and choices, you chose a company that has a very good reputation for taking care of their customers but I really needed to set freds comment straight. With care your spa should last you many years to come and by the time it does need replaced you will be ready for all of the new cool things that will be available!"

I have worked on many Hot Spring spas. While what stuart said is true, it is also misleading. Hot Spring has the same types of problems as most other major brands. Whith the exception of the heater and the siding these problems are few and far between.

[empolgation]

I think it necessary to see the post that he was refuting as well... I'd say you need the entire record before you can straighten it.

[Mendocino101]

If you are going to quote someone....than you need the entire quote and also what was it in reply or rebuttal to....Stuart as well as Chas and Bruce are respected by many for there straight forward opionions.....I do know that Stuart while at one time was involved with hot springs does have much respect for them and while he may differ on the way they do certain things. He has always said they are a company that stands behind their product and one of the best for service.....also the person " Fred " he referred to was making some very unkind remarks to many who choose any other product besides Hot Springs....

[Mendocino101]

The rest of the Story of what Stuart replied to.....

Author: Fred (---.dsl.pipex.com)
Date:   06-09-04 09:15

about 1 week, maybe 10 days, oops! sorry that applies to a Marquis, Hot spring is 25 years.

The original question was how long could you except a Hot Springs spa to last....

[stuart]

Yes I was at one time affiliated with Hotspring and thought that there was no life after because I "bought the dream" that they sell so well but now to quote the bible;

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
--1 Corinthians 13:11

I now know better and understand more as I have grown to middle age in this industry and see with experienced eyes.

Hotspring actually does do a good job at taking care of their customers but puts more money into that than solid production. If you take long hard honest look at a Hotspring spa what do you really see? A very inexpensive shell, fairly inexpensive pump compared to the rest of the industry and lets talk jets - do you honestly believe that those jets cost much to make? If you do I have some ocean front property in Arizona for you.

Listen, out of over 170 manufactures Hotspring is in the top 3 for #'s, top 10 for salesmanship and top 20 quality but only the top 30 for engineering. They have a great level of professionalism and dealer support but they are a true "Marketing Machine" not an engineering Icon.

Thanks for quoting me here and for your comments. I don't mean to slaughter any sacrificial lambs here with anyone and probably differ in my opinion with many but remember that I have walked the walk for a very long time and am just now trying to talk the talk.

[ZzTop]

Yes I was at one time affiliated with Hotspring and thought that there was no life after because I "bought the dream" that they sell so well but now to quote the bible;

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
--1 Corinthians 13:11


I now know better and understand more as I have grown to middle age in this industry and see with experienced eyes.

Hotspring actually does do a good job at taking care of their customers but puts more money into that than solid production. If you take long hard honest look at a Hotspring spa what do you really see? A very inexpensive shell, fairly inexpensive pump compared to the rest of the industry and lets talk jets - do you honestly believe that those jets cost much to make? If you do I have some ocean front property in Arizona for you.

Listen, out of over 170 manufactures Hotspring is in the top 3 for #'s, top 10 for salesmanship and top 20 quality but only the top 30 for engineering. They have a great level of professionalism and dealer support but they are a true "Marketing Machine" not an engineering Icon.

Thanks for quoting me here and for your comments. I don't mean to slaughter any sacrificial lambs here with anyone and probably differ in my opinion with many but remember that I have walked the walk for a very long time and am just now trying to talk the talk.
 

Stuart welcome to this forum

I know you have been posting on other Spa forums for a long time and respect your considerable experience and well informed comments.

Regards, Zz

[Gerrym]

Oh dear, some of you guys seemed to have developed a complete sense of humour failure.

Surely you do not take that post seriously?

[Chas]

This guy doesn't seem to care for HS. Can Chas or Bruce set the record straight?
Reply To This Message
 Re: How long should a HS tub last?
Author: stuart (63.227.141.---)
Date:   06-11-04 17:00

There are plenty of other people who seem to be doing just fine, but I will give it a whirl...

I was going to stay out of this one but Freds usual childish comments have baited me in!

I guess I don't know who Fred is. Sorry.

I have posted many times that Hotspring has a tendency to develop microcraze cracks in the endurol that can eventually crack through.

I know this happened many years ago, but I have not seen it in the last 6 years or so, maybe more.

Because they have no fiberglass behind the shell this will cause leaks.

True: if the shell cracks through, the spa will leak.

Hotspring's repair for this is to FIBERGLASS the back of the cracked area!

Yup. The problem was that there wasn't a good support for the shell in the light area, and in the step area on some models. So the repair on these 9 and 10 year-old tubs is to beef up the area, and fiberglass is a good way to do that in the field - so the surface repair won't crack again down the road.  They have remedied that situation - now you have a 30# closed-cell polyurethane foam covering the whole back of the shell - applied by a computer-controlled robot.

Oh, they also posted a notice to all of their dealers that these small hairline cracks are a “Natural part of the ageing process of that material” and won’t be warranted unless they leak! It’s like saying the paint on your new Porsche will crack but sorry it is a natural part of the ageing!

That was a long time ago, had a specific set of serial numbers beginning and END, and isn't a problem today.

Hotspring’s circ pumps will fail before any other pump in system because of the closed loop, Marquis found this out about 8 years ago and went away from the circ pump.

I don't quite know what you mean by "closed loop." Sorry. It's a good pump - many other makers use a similar unit.

The circ pumps usually don't last as long as the jet pumps. That's one of many reasons they are there! Would you rather replace the small circ pump - warranted for five years- or the jet pump? With 24-hour operation, this circ pump can still go ten years, but usually doesn't.

Hotspring pillows will usually last less than 3 years before they need replaced, Marquis stopped this many years ago when they asked the question - What's more important, a soft bacteria collector that will eventually deteriorate or a molded head rest to lean back on?

Our pillows were redesigned in 2002: they no longer open at the seam and go soggy on you. New material - much longer lasting. They are also now not nearly as soft. They are still expensive to replace - and you will replace them at least once during the life of a HotSpring spa. But people sure seem to love them.

Hotspring jets with those 4 little 1/8 in prongs typically need replaced in 4 or 5 years because they start falling out.

If you find you are moving the interchangeable jets around a lot, they will wear out sooner. In that case, I recommend getting more spinners- so you have to move them less - and the problem will go away. They work fine - but they have moving parts. I don't think I would agree that they fail often or soon.

Marquis and many other manufactures use a jet designed by one of the largest plastics vendors in the industry and don't try to manufacture their own jet to save money.

I doubt you could prove the point that having our own jets designed and produced is cheaper than going to Waterway and ordering a bunch of off-the-shelf units.

But the main reason we do so is because in a HotSpring tub, adjusting one jet does not change the pressure of any other jets in the tub. That feature is simply not available from other jet makers.

//This post exceeded the acceptable length and will be divided into two posts//

[Chas]

BTW the paten was up on the moto massage jet a few years ago, why hasn't anyone else picked it up if it was so good?

I have heard this from more than one source, and not being a patent attorney, I don't know. I always thought that patents could be renewed as long as the design or product was still being used by the patent holder. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. What good would a patent be if it had a finite life which cannot be extended by the patent holder? However, if that turns out to be true, then I would fully expect the legal department at Masco to have ways to assure that the design gets a new patent, or whatever would protect our design.

Just about every Hotspring cabinet in the county that was exposed to sunlight in the last few years turned Mary Kay pink! Hotspring’s answer was to say in their warranty "exclusive of surface stain" isn't it sold as a "maintenance free" material?

The very first plastic siding that HotSpring put on it's tubs did turn pink. It was also glued on in such a way that it couldn't readily be removed in the field. Yes - it was maintenance free - if you didn't mind the color...  :-)

It was quickly replaced with another -second generation - material which has proved to be up to the task. We are currently on our third generation of siding - and it is colorfast, removable, and easy to live with.

BTW - that older material does take a stain, so it can be returned to its new look - or any other color you choose - but I agree, it was a looser.

While we're on the subject of warranty, if Hotspring outlasts Marquis then why is their warranty "non-transferable"?

I guess I don't know who said HotSpring will outlast Marquis - wasn't me. They are made from similar materials, have similar systems and equipment, and with proper care should last about the same, IMO.

As to making the warranty transferable, I would have to say that I don't really know. I know this: making the warranty transfer is costly, and the end user bears that cost - all the end users. But only the few that buy a used one get the benefit. So some very large percentage of our owners would be paying a premium for a feature that a very small percentage of our owners get to enjoy.

Oh, and those pillows I talked about have no warranty! Neither does the filter lid, Marquis covers theirs.

Actually - I think clarification is needed here: I don't see pillows in the Marquis warranty at all.  Ours are at least warranted to be in perfect condition at delivery. And if a problem with a filter lid is not from abuse, it is covered by HotSpring. Other than that...

I certainly don't remember Marquis having to recall 148,000 heaters for potential fire hazard like Hotspring did!

No, though they do use TrueHeat heaters, made by the very same company that made the heaters which were recalled. I'm not sure: has Marquis even SOLD 148,000 spas that are still under warranty?

And of course, whenever I see this bit of history being dredged up, I have to ask: why are you mentioning something that was taken care of years ago? You can't buy a spa with the TrueHeat heater - from us- anymore, and even the CPSC is happy with the handling of the recall. It is a closed issue, except for people who try to use it to bash HotSpring.

How about the tile? Hotspring dealers tell you that it is a similar material to the endurol yet they specifically state that it is only warranted for 1 year. Are they afraid it won't last longer?

No, the tile is similar to the acrylic. In fact, it IS acrylic. And as such, it has the same expansion and contraction properties as the shells of our tubs. Which is why it stays put. Putting ceramic tile (which doesn't expand/contract much if at all with temp changes) on a plastic tub never was a great idea, though many still do it.

Other makers have NO warranty on the tile, we have a year. I think that shows good faith in the product. Most of our tubs no longer have tile, BTW, so once again, this is a 'problem' that people try to dredge up to bash us with that doesn't really turn out to be a 'problem.'

Marquis tried it, didn’t like it and moved on.

Yes, Marquis - among others-  has followed many of our trends.

I don't dislike Hotspring and quite often refer people to look at both manufactures but don't make an infantile statement that Marquis will fail two decades before Hotspring.

Well, I'm responding because I was invited to do so, not because I was the one who made the statements you mentioned. In fact, I try very hard not to make infantile statements at all, but you would have to check with my wife to see if I have truly achieved my goal or not.

However, looking at Marquis - I see an aggressive company on the move, with a very good product to offer.

[Mendocino101]

Chas...

Thanks for a great reply...and as you must have said tongue in cheek none of those were directed at you...but by someone else making.....infantile statements....we are still waiting for confirmation from your wife as to yours....

[Chas]

 

[spayogi]

Chas,
As the one who asked for your reply I would like to say "Thank You!". I appreciate your detailed responses to each particular point. You are a class act in a field of "used car salesman" who are always slamming the others product.
Where I live we have Hot Springs, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Sunbelt, Caldera, Vita, And Leisure Bay. I believe I will be putting my hard earned money(I'm a teacher) into a Tiger River Bengal($5500) or a Hot Spring Sovereign($6300).
Stay positive.
Thanks!

[Gerrym]

Well I think this has certainly shown that Stuart does not have the knowledge that some thought he may have had.

Good luck with whatever you are trying to sell now Stuart.

Chas, fantastic reply, not once did you go on the offensive.
Well played!!!

[Starlight]

Hi Chas,

I'm not a lawyer but I deal with patents quite a bit in my job.  A patent does in fact expire.  The expiration date, with some exceptions, is 20 years from the filing date of the patent application.  There is some sound reasoning behind this--the government grants a legally enforceable monopoly in exchange for public disclosure on the "best mode" to practice the invention.  The theory is that while the patent owner's protected monopoly exists, the owner reaps the financial rewards of his invention; when the term expires, society at large benefits because everyone is free to use the invention.  This is also the general theory behind copyright protection that has been perverted over the years, but that is another topic.  

There are various means that are used to retain some form of patent protection on inventions.  A common one is to make and patent an improvement to the original invention.  When the original patent expires, people can copy it but it won't be the "latest and greatest".

I did only a cursory patent search, but found this:

United States Patent  4,716,604  
Watkins  * January 5, 1988  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spa with moving jets


Abstract
A flexible tube exhausting pumped water into a spa tank and whipping by reaction to exhaust of water therefrom. A number of articulated plastic sleeves encircling the tube and guiding the tube to whip only in a vertical plane. The sleeves being pivotally connected to pivot about horizontal parallel axes. Adjacent sleeves having abutments limiting bending of the harness and the tube. An end sleeve being secured against rotation but being slidable longitudinally of the tube so that the harness can adjust longitudinally of the tube during whipping of the tube.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors:  Watkins; Jonathan (San Marcos, CA)  
Assignee:  Watkins Manufacturing Co. (Carlsbad, CA)  

• Notice:  The portion of the term of this patent subsequent to June 18, 2002 has been disclaimed.
  Appl. No.:  777435
  Filed:  September 18, 1985
  
  Current U.S. Class: 4/541.6; 4/492; 138/110; 138/155; 239/229; 285/45  
  Intern'l Class:  A61H 033/02
  Field of Search:  4/490,492,507,541-544,567-569,601,615,191 138/110,120,155,109 285/45,330 339/104 239/225,229,255,587 446/156,159
  
  
  
  So it appears that Watkins chose not to take the full term of protection to which they were entitled--for whatever reason.  I don't think the fact that others could use the design but don't means anything other than that there are multiple options for jet design.  Why would a competitor want to incorporate a feature strongly associated with another brand unnecessarily?  I have enjoyed tubs with the MotoMassage as well as those without--to try to bash Hotsprings because everyone isn't using their jet design doesn't make sense to me.
  
  Starlight