Which manufacturer makes the best engineered tubs? Marquis, D1, Bullfrog, other?

[steel_3d]

I've been slowly getting familiar with hot tub technology in my quest to get my first tub. I am much less interested in marketing, brand recognition, therapy, and "wet tests". What I want is a reliable, energy efficient spa, with good filtration/sanitizing. I'm looking for the best engineered spa (and then see if I can afford it). Or possibly go for a lower end model from the best manufacturer. Looking for a large party tub at least 90x90. I do my own work on everything, so I do not wanna be spending my weekends digging the guts out of the spa a few years down the road, or paying service techs an arm and a leg. I don't mind replacing equipment, that's just money, but I do NOT want to be digging for leaks.

Marquis:

pros:
-seem to be designed for easy maintenance
-light weight foam seems easy to remove by hand (does anyone else use this foam?)
-nice equipment bay (don't know if lower models have dedicated equipment bay, didn't open one up)
-guillotine pump cutoffs
-abs pan
-glued, clamped, barb joints
-quiet
-5yr equipment warranty

cons:
-wood frame
-no circ pump (is that a con?)
-expensive for the higher end (looked at Euphoria)

Dimension One:

pros:
-nice equipment bay on higher end
-guillotine pump cutoffs on high end only
-glued, clamped, barbed
-screw-in jets
-full foam
-abs pan
-wood frame seems well connected with those "spike strips"
-lifetime cabinet warranty

cons:
-lower end models don't have dedicated equipment bay, no guillotines
-foam is hard, would be tough to remove
-wood frame
-only 3 yr equipment warranty (is their gecko stuff, especially on lower end, any good? Lang circ pump supposedly not reliable)

Any opinions on Meridian? Saw a suspiciously good "independently certified" energy rating on it (like $11 per month in LA)

Bullfrog (haven't seen in person yet, just talked to dealer):

Pros:
-full plastic construction, no wood or metal
-full foam
-highly reduced likelyhood of leaks due to jet packs being contained within the shell
-abs pan
-5yr (?) warranty

Cons:
-expensive
-jets outside of packs still contribute to leaks (?) that would mean lower end models don't get much benefit
-do jet packs take away from space inside?

I'd love an A8, but might have to settle for R7. Opinions?

Sundance/Jacuzzi/Hot Springs:
-they seem very mainstream, no special engineering to help maintainability, indeed there seem to be severe reliability issues (rare?)
-hot strings supposedly very energy efficient. Is this still true, or an old wives' tale? It's also the most expensive of the bunch for comparable models, it seems. Are Hot Spots any good?
-is Sundance Select series any good? Well made? Supposed to be efficient. Kinda small for me, unfortunately.

Should I lean towards circ pump or no circ pump?
Should I lean towards UV or CD?

Any other manufacturers with amazing engineering that I missed? Am I paying too much premium for these three brands that I quoted to make it worthwhile even in the long run, even if they're a bit better? Would I be better off with a cheap mainstream model?

If I've stated misconceptions, feel free to correct me.

But, please, let's keep the discussion technical. Go.

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

misconceptions/general ramblings: I've spent 9 years in service and 4 in sales so I have a few things that you may or may not find useful

1. wood frames have been used in building spas for over 30 years..its much more cost effective than Plastic or Steel and it simply works, I have dozens of customer spas that are 15-20 years old and still standing as strong as they were day 1 with a wood frame.

2. "guillotine" pump cutoffs....2 sides to this coin, yes they can be convenient but a couple things to keep in mind...too many of them actually reduce flow, and the handles absolutely WILL fail leading to a plumbing repair down the road...normally I wouldn't consider this repair difficult but depending on where they are located in the equipment compartment I've had some that are a major pain in the a$$ to make a repair on.

3. ABS Pan...high end spas will be "sealed" off on the bottom, so if someone is selling you on an ABS pan being an upgrade...well lets just say I'm not buying what they are selling :-)

4. Circ pump is not 100% necessary but IT IS a real nice upgrade...keeps water consistently moving/filtering and it will constantly maintain temperature allowing less wear and tear on your "main" 2spd. jet pump and heater as well.  Circ pump also ensures that your ozonator is actually working on a regular basis..just remember, no moving water = ozonator not working

5. I prefer CD ozone...UV bulb needs to be replaced every year..dust buildup on the bulb can lead to degraded performance (ie must open equip. compartment and wipe it off occasionally) and a good CD ozone can be had for $150-$200 online...bottom line in my opinion CD has better value overall.

confused:  You stated you wanted a reliable energy efficient spa but yet you want it to have "soft foam" or "no foam?"....sorry to say, you can't have it both ways...its either insulated properly or its not..1/2lb "soft" foam isn't going to be nearly as efficient as some companies who use 2 - 3.5 lb. foam

[Hot Spring Ace]

Sundance/Jacuzzi/Hot Springs:
-they seem very mainstream, no special engineering to help maintainability, indeed there seem to be severe reliability issues (rare?) Severe reliability issues? I don't think so! There is a reason these 3 brands are among the most well respected. They're all about about quality, reliability, energy use, great hydrotherapy. In other words they are fully engineered. As far as seeming "mainstream" and "no special engineering", maybe you mean the don't have to resort to a lot of gimmicks.
-hot strings supposedly very energy efficient. Is this still true, or an old wives' tale? It's also the most expensive of the bunch for comparable models, it seems.  It is very true, Hot Spring spas are super energy efficient because they use multi density foam layers.
-Are Hot Spots any good? Yes, Hot Spots have been very well received since inceoption. They were designed to be a great value spa line for those who have a budget and are willing to skip some of the bells and whistles without compromising quality.
-Should I lean towards circ pump or no circ pump? It definitely has advantages relative to sound, energy use and its ability to keep ozone working 24/7.
-Should I lean towards UV or CD? CD is the newer technology.

[vangoghsear]

I own a Bullfrog, one of the lower end models, the 151R.  The jet pack design is a pretty elegant solution to leak points that places piping and openings within in the wetted area where leaks are not an issue.  The Jetpacks do not seem to eat into tub space; mine (my model only has one jetpack) is only a few inches thick and it is recessed into the shell.  With only two openings through the shell at the top for the feeder pipes there are thirty or so jets in my jet pack that would have been thirty holes in the shell. 

[bimmerdog]

I will only talk about the UV system THAT I OWN.  It works fantastic.  The cost for a new bulb is $74.99 at my hot tub store.  I have pulled out my bulb to see if what I have been told by people who don't own the system and have to scare people away from the system, the tube around the bulb was still crystal clear as it was the day my tub arrived. I checked the tube when I drained my tub for its 4 month refill.  My tub now is 5 months old. 

[Spatech_tuo]

I will only talk about the UV system THAT I OWN.  It works fantastic.  The cost for a new bulb is $74.99 at my hot tub store.  I have pulled out my bulb to see if what I have been told by people who don't own the system and have to scare people away from the system, the tube around the bulb was still crystal clear as it was the day my tub arrived. I checked the tube when I drained my tub for its 4 month refill.  My tub now is 5 months old.

With UV bulbs I always tell people to change them yearly but I also let them know that the bulb will undoubtedly still be glowing in a year or two or more. The reason you change it then is because the intensity greatly diminishes over time. Many times I've seen people say they hadn't changed it in like 3 or 4 years and its still illuminating so they think its still working but it isn't doing much if anything at that point but they hadn't noticed any change.

[steel_3d]

Thanks for the answers, guys, some good stuff in here. Keep the recommendations coming, including on brands/models, personal experiences with them, etc. What would be your pick?

confused:  You stated you wanted a reliable energy efficient spa but yet you want it to have "soft foam" or "no foam?"....sorry to say, you can't have it both ways...its either insulated properly or its not..1/2lb "soft" foam isn't going to be nearly as efficient as some companies who use 2 - 3.5 lb. foam

According to the Marquis guy, they only lose "half an R" with the half pound foam. Sounds like an acceptable tradeoff, but of course I can't verify the numbers, which is why I'm looking for first hand info. Marquis still does full foam.

Btw, is there a difference regarding open or closed cell foams? I was just thinking an open cell foam could get nasty with a leak...

Severe reliability issues? I don't think so! There is a reason these 3 brands are among the most well respected. They're all about about quality, reliability, energy use, great hydrotherapy. In other words they are fully engineered. As far as seeming "mainstream" and "no special engineering", maybe you mean the don't have to resort to a lot of gimmicks.

I happen to think the reliability/efficiency related features I brought up will make my life easier/better in the long run. At least I perceive value in them. The standard spas would have to make up in other ways. Last problem free past five years (not from what I've seen around this board), higher efficiency (maybe), lower price...

[wmccall]

2. "guillotine" pump cutoffs....2 sides to this coin, yes they can be convenient but a couple things to keep in mind...too many of them actually reduce flow, and the handles absolutely WILL fail leading to a plumbing repair down the road...normally I wouldn't consider this repair difficult but depending on where they are located in the equipment compartment I've had some that are a major pain in the a$$ to make a repair on.

I can attest to that one.

[vangoghsear]

If given a choice select CD Ozone.

Highest concentration of ozone that can be produced by 185-nm UV lamp is 0.2 percent by weight, approximately 10% of the average concentration available by corona discharge.

Considerable more electrical energy is required to produce a given quantity of ozone by UV radiation than by corona discharge.

From:
http://www.ozoneapplications.com/info/cd_vs_uv.htm

Also, Consider using Nature2 or similar.  It can reduce your chemical levels required to achieve proper sanitation.

[Spoiledrotten]

If given a choice select CD Ozone.


From:
http://www.ozoneapplications.com/info/cd_vs_uv.htm

Also, Consider using Nature2 or similar.  It can reduce your chemical levels required to achieve proper sanitation.

I don't think I'm highjacking here but concerning the Nature2, does that make the reading of strips different, or do you just have to guess at how much to cut back on chems? I'm interested in trying the Nature2, but I don't know how to tell how much it actually helps in the chemical part.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

If given a choice select CD Ozone.

Highest concentration of ozone that can be produced by 185-nm UV lamp is 0.2 percent by weight, approximately 10% of the average concentration available by corona discharge.

Considerable more electrical energy is required to produce a given quantity of ozone by UV radiation than by corona discharge.

From:
http://www.ozoneapplications.com/info/cd_vs_uv.htm

Also, Consider using Nature2 or similar.  It can reduce your chemical levels required to achieve proper sanitation.

Critical to CD ozone systems is proper air preparation. The gas feeding the ozone generator must be very dry (minimum -80 degrees F),

[Hot Spring Ace]

Severe reliability issues? I don't think so! There is a reason these 3 brands are among the most well respected. They're all about about quality, reliability, energy use, great hydrotherapy. In other words they are fully engineered. As far as seeming "mainstream" and "no special engineering", maybe you mean the don't have to resort to a lot of gimmicks.

I happen to think the reliability/efficiency related features I brought up will make my life easier/better in the long run. At least I perceive value in them. The standard spas would have to make up in other ways. Last problem free past five years (not from what I've seen around this board), higher efficiency (maybe), lower price...

I'm not sure what features you've been told make those other spas better than a Hot Spring (or Jacuzzi or Sundance). Marketing groups and sales people can be great at telling you why you want your spa made their way. I'll go by field data. When you find spas out there that are still running strong at 15 and 20 years theres a good chance its a Hot Spring. Mines at 14 and I literally have two neighbors who want it if I get a new spa because they know how well it still works.
 
Also, Hot Spring uses the lower R-vlaue half pound foam as the final filler. The half pound may be easier to remove but its the other densities that make our spas clearly more efficient than a spa that just uses half pound.

Keep researching, listen to every pitch with an open mind but don't take every claim at face value. In the end get the spa that speaks to you.

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

I will only talk about the UV system THAT I OWN.  It works fantastic.  The cost for a new bulb is $74.99 at my hot tub store.  I have pulled out my bulb to see if what I have been told by people who don't own the system and have to scare people away from the system, the tube around the bulb was still crystal clear as it was the day my tub arrived. I checked the tube when I drained my tub for its 4 month refill.  My tub now is 5 months old.

why would anyone scare someone away from it? OP simply asked which way to go and I replied with CD is a better value:

lets assume both are incl. with the spa: typical CD ozone has a 5 year lifespan.....5 years of UV bulbs $74.99 x 5 =  $375  Replacement CD ozone cost for a Jed 103 = $99-$125...both are equally effective...now I'm no mathematician but CD seems like a better value to me, your mileage may vary

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

With UV ozone, from the very first day you turn it on, it puts out a wee bit less ozone each day. Yes the lamp remains lit, but the frequency of the light begins changing, producing less and less ozone. Most UV bulbs are rated at 10,000 hours (there's 8760 hours ion a year)...but most don't realize that the electrical surge of turning them ON, eats up roughly 4 hours of that life.

CD ozone puts out a constant amount of ozone until the chip dies (and the cheaper versions require the chip be replaced annually). One of the down sides to CD ozone is the production of nitric acid

[vangoghsear]

If given a choice select CD Ozone.


From:
http://www.ozoneapplications.com/info/cd_vs_uv.htm

Also, Consider using Nature2 or similar.  It can reduce your chemical levels required to achieve proper sanitation.

I don't think I'm highjacking here but concerning the Nature2, does that make the reading of strips different, or do you just have to guess at how much to cut back on chems? I'm interested in trying the Nature2, but I don't know how to tell how much it actually helps in the chemical part.

The claim is you can run as low as .5 ppm of free chlorine with an N2 cartridge in place (following all guides for use).