VORTEX Spas from Canada

[Ryan VSO]

We use a small efficient circulation pump , you can set the circ pump work with cycle or 24 hours/7

[Tman122]

What kind of pump is it? How many amps does it draw? Cause that could simply be a regular jet pump, all spas can be set to filter continually or programmed.

[Ryan VSO]

1.2amp 60gallon/min max dont worry i know how they are build hehe

[Tman122]

OK that's good. With the insulation style your using you have to have a 24/7 pump in order for it to get close to a fully foamed in cabinet space in efficiency, still not as good but a lot closer. But you still have the heat issue that occurs with controls and pumps subjected to it for their shortened life. Do you use vents in the summer to cool the air space? And can you seal the cabinet for very cold times?

[Ryan VSO]

Im not sure you understand how it really work but the main heat loss is when theres actually someone using the spa , with a vortex spas , only the heat from the jet pumps(2) will produce the equivalent of a 4kw heater wich you wont have with a full foamed spa. We have a jacuzzi (full foam) and a vortex spa that we run outside with temperature going below -20degrees and the full foam is way behind... You have to understand that if you dont have insulated walls wich also provide insonorisation from your pump , every component (pump,heater tube,) will be at the same temperature as the outside temperature and this is the major problem with full foam when you go below -15 degrees. Our pumps have less than 1% of failure after 5 years of operation so i dont know why you are saying all that but your confusing me.

[Tman122]

Oh boy here we go again. I think the one who doesn't understand is you. You have been tainted by the type of insulation you provide on your tubs. It has been proven over and over that a small circulation pump on a fully foamed tub will beat a perimeter insulated spa every time. And your right the jet pumps have to run to create R-Factor in a perimeter insulated cabinet. I'm happy that you use the 1.5 amp pump to at least maintain a decent r-factor during moderate temps, say 30-50. And as long as the perimeter insulated cabinet is sealed completely in very cold temps (you still haven't answered that question) then it can come close. But then you have to vent in warmer weather or 2 things happen temp drift beyond the set temp and premature component failure.

I live in Northern Minnesota so trust me -20F is not that uncommon and pretty regular for a few months a year.

You can keep the heat in the vessel (full foam) or you can keep it in the cabinet. The problem with keeping it in the cabinet are many. One, you have to seal the cabinet, a very light breeze can dissipate cabinet warmth very quickly and your vessel will loose hear fast causing heater use. Two, you have to run jet pumps in order to keep R-factor and most people only need 4-6 hours of filtration and running them for the balance of the day 18-20 hours is not only a waste of energy but can cause premature component failure. And 3 temp drift in the warmer months.

Move beyond your sales pitch and think physics. Arctic Spas does perimeter insulation very well and they are still not perfect or as energy efficient as say a Hot Springs with a small circ. pump. That has been proven here in my area with meters.

And your right a good quality cover is THE MOST important thing in energy efficiency. But hot moves to cold in any direction.

[Ryan VSO]

I really dont want to go into this , it was -20degrees celcius by the way .We do sell hotspring also in our stores and they are less efficient . We are talking about 100$ year difference , hotspring are sold around 9-10k and we sell a vortex for 7k online. Unless you have both running to compare like we do we should move to another subject.

[Tman122]

I would like to see some unbiased data on that. Don't bother answering the question regarding your cabinet being sealed close to air tight.

I don't even like Hot Springs.

[Ryan VSO]

From what we have tested , when its below -10 degress celcius outside our perimeter insulation is drasticly more efficient . You are right to say that full foam is a little bit more efficient when its above -10 outside but just the fact to not see whats going on with your plumbing, the fact that a perimeter insulation reduce the hearing of the pump noise is 2 good reasons for me to choose that insulation indtead of foam . When you choose the right components and dont insert cheap material in your spa you should not have any problem with a perimeter insulation . Have you experienced any issue wihthat type of insulation?

[Tman122]

Personally I think a combination of the 2 styles of insulation is the best. But I have to build the tubs myself because no manufacturer does it. I use fans, dampers and duct to both cool components during operation in the summer and to vent the cabinet to prevent heat creep. The cabinet is air tight and thermostatically controlled to maintain the temperature inside the cabinet no higher than the manufacturers recommended maximum operating temperature of the pumps and controls. A super tiny circulation pump filters and heats if need be during non use periods (the majority of the tubs life)  and the big pumps filter and heat during times of use. A 6" to 4" tapered cover tops it all off.

[Spatech_tuo]

From what we have tested , when its below -10 degress celcius outside our perimeter insulation is drasticly more efficient . You are right to say that full foam is a little bit more efficient when its above -10 outside but just the fact to not see whats going on with your plumbing, the fact that a perimeter insulation reduce the hearing of the pump noise is 2 good reasons for me to choose that insulation indtead of foam . When you choose the right components and dont insert cheap material in your spa you should not have any problem with a perimeter insulation . Have you experienced any issue wihthat type of insulation?

I don't beleive its more efficient let alone "drastically" but the key point is without data many here will find such claims as just salesmanship. Also, if I want to reduce noise I'd get a spa with a circ pump rather than having to hear the main pump filtering for 6 hours a day.

[vangoghsear]

A 69% efficient 2 hp pump (avg) will put almost 44000 btu into that insulated airspace over 6 hours of operation.  If the R value of the insulation limits the losses through the shell to less than that over a 24 hour period, the air space between the insulation and the tub will rise in temperature and when that air space is hotter than the water, the tub water will gain heat.  That is pure waste heat so the claim of high efficiency depends largely on the insulating value of the barrier insulation. 

The barrier insulation tub does not have to be as well insulated as the full foam tub, it just has to capture enough waste heat to limit the total losses to less than that of a full foam insulated tub that does not capture any waste heat (or minimal waste heat through the equipment cavity wall).

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

fyi..........44000 btu's over 6 hours is equal to just over 2 kW per hour.

[vangoghsear]

fyi..........44000 btu's over 6 hours is equal to just over 2 kW per hour.

That's correct.  A 69% eff 2hp motor puts out about 3650 btu per hp into a space when the motor is contained in that space.  1 btu = .293 watts so 3650 x .293 = 1069 watts x 2 hp = 2138 watts per hour.

[Tman122]

Lots of people come here with claims of perimeter insulation superiority. Lots of people with pipe dreams and a sales pitch. But it truly is easier to repair the 1% of leaks that happen in the foam insulation. Not sure if the 5-15 bucks a month more in electric cost's makes it a good value as insurance for a very very unlikely leak.

Just some random thoughts.

I think shoppers need to make sure their purchase is well insulated.