Two questions for the smart ones

[bimmerdog]

First question.......

Hot tub A has the best filter system on the market
Hot Tub B has a very good filter system

Both tubs in a controlled test have the same water used (same faucet to fill both) in the tub. Same amount of water in both. Same people using the tub for the same amount of time.  All people shower before using tubs. Same swim suits.  Every thing as close to the same as humanly possible

Is hot tub A water going to be cleaner and need less chemicals then hot tub B?

All I hear is how the filter system on tub A is so superior to all others but I can not find anything that supports the claim that tub A makes the water cleaner and makes the water safer for the bathers. 

Second question ( sorry boring night nothing to do)
Bypass vs no Bypass.  Going with the same test as above.  Is there ANY proof that one is better then another.  Not "it has to be better because it uses filters to filter all water"  Actual proof. 

Thanks

[wmccall]

I'm getting dumber by the day, so I won't answer, but I do like the question and understand the logic.

As nothing but a consumer, I have frequently simplified things by relating it to the old VHS/Beta debate. 

It might be said Beta has a signal to noise ratio of .00256 db/hz/sec while VHS is .00251.   While maybe true (I actually made that up) can the eye tell?

[vangoghsear]

Are you just talking filtering, or is one system using UV light treatment?  UV properly done kills bacteria, viruses, etc. and could certainly reduce chemicals needed as it could do some sanitation at least of the water that it comes in contact with. 

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

What independent scientific test shows that Hot tub A has the best filter system on the market?? or is this just some salesman's claim?

[stuart]

A hypothetical question can often only have a hypothetical answer...any scientific study would be subjective to whoever paid for that study.

Honestly, a single 35 sq ft filter can filter every bit as well as 200 square ft of filtration but you will change on more often...It's like having a larger vacuum bag or a smaller one, the smaller one fills up faster.

There are way to many other factors involved, how much water turn over, how often do you clean the filters? Obviously if you have a smaller filter you would have to clean it more often but then is your larger filter just keeping all the stuff it collects setting in the water longer causing the need for more sanitizer?

Does a more intense filter equate to more expense and do you really need it for that usage? Do you get better power from a bypass system? Surely the power can't be the same with a filter in the way can it?  On my spa I've got the filter system on only one pump and the other pump is bypassed...I always set on the bypass side so because I like the jet power on that side.

There are a whole lot more vacuums sold out there then spas and they've been selling them long yet we can't seem to answer that question with vacuums either.

Personally I think my Kirby can kick your Dyson’s but!

[bimmerdog]

It's not a hypothetical question.  Wait it is, Stuart you are right.  Why doesn't Hot Springs or Sundance or any other company do a test like I described by an independent lab to show that their tub is better.  The reason is it will not show enough difference to justify that Hot Tub A is that much better to be able to charge more.
 
Thanks every one for the responses.  I'm just a guy that likes to be shown with facts not "my boss told me it is better then theirs"  The hot tub companies have to have some thing different from their competitors or why would I buy their spa. 

Hey Stuart my Riccar vacuum kicks your Kirby's arse because my salesman said so.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 
Stuarts right on with water turn over!

    If you take a std circ pump that filters an average of 900 gallons an hour in a 24hr period it would filter appox 21,000 gallons a day, now take a main pump 2 spd 2.5hp  that prolly pushes 1500 GPH an hour on low speed on high up to 2500 GPH if not more.   Say it runs for 4 hrs a day thats 6000 gallons a day on high 10,000 gallons a day.     Even with those hypothetical numbers it equals aprox 37,000 gallons of water flowing through one, two or 5 filters. Granted all pumps on a HS draws through a filter.   But if you are adding another say 15,000 gallons of water a day through a filter who cares just means you have more filters to clean.       Now in an average water volume of 350 gallons in a spa does no by-pass filtration really mean anything?         No not really.

       Filters are designed to pick out particulates in the water they do not stop bacteria from producing. Doesn't matter if there is 1,2,5 or even 10 filters in a spa.      So once again does no by-pass filtration really mean anything, you still use the same amount of chems to keep bacteria in check.     

  No by-pass filtration is a great "sales tool" obviously since it's brought up so often, my question has always been?    If it's so great why doesn't anybody else use it?       Much like Beachcomber, external equipment pac or bullfrogs individual jet pack things.  I can also add Sundances micron filter and Jacuzzis new filter.   

 And again like Stuart mentioned, a spa with just one filter can stay just as clean as a spa with 1,2 or 5   

[stuart]

We could walk on a whole lot more sacred cows then these in this post...like types of heat, insulation, bases and so on.

I tell customers every day that if a salesman is telling you that just about every feature on their spa is "The Only" or no one else has it, it’s proprietary they probably need to be suspect of what else they are being told.

To me the problem isn't that salespeople are being purposely deceitful, they are simply regurgitating whatever they are being told in sales training.

It's kinda like setting up a line of 20 people and tell the first one a secret then have them pass it to the next until it gets to the end and doesn't even resemble the original statement...except with spas it then becomes a standard to the point that even the guy that started it believes what the last guy says!

[vangoghsear]

We could walk on a whole lot more sacred cows then these in this post...like types of heat, insulation, bases and so on...

Here we go.

VGE grabs popcorn and sits back to watch the fireworks.

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster

now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.

and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above

[bimmerdog]

A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster

now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.

and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above

Well sorry for stirring up a hornets nest. 

I do have to say my Riccar vacuum is the best because I have seen it with my own eyes. 

[Tman122]

A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster

now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.

and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above

So that 24 hour 20 gpm circ pump filters better than the 160 gpm jet pump working for how many hours?

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster

now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.

and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above

So that 24 hour 20 gpm circ pump filters better than the 160 gpm jet pump working for how many hours?

yes...also a much more efficient system all around

[Jacuzzi Jim]

   I don't argue the fact that a spa with a circ pump, filters better than one without in most cases. I think it does!     I will argue any day of the week that no bypass filtration is not any better than most filter systems out there regarding water "turn over" in a spa.
 
 But to say a spa that has no bypass filtration is better than one with out is crazy, when your talking turn over. Once again say a circ pump pushing/sucking  60,000 gallons a day in a 350 gallon spa, the water will end up going through a filter sooner than later. And that doesn't even include the other one, two or three main pumps a spa may have with multiple filters.
        I don't say it in my sales pitch about a Jacuzzi but I could, because I have seen it with my "own two eyes" that the 24hr circ pump is plumbed directly to the circ pump filter with no bypass.   Another reason I know this is because I can take my hand and plug the filter fitting and get a flow error on the topside.  If it was bypassed the flo error wouldn't show up.   

   

[Jac-470]

I was told by the HS dealer that the Sundance and Jacuzzi have bypass in there system, yet my Jacuzzi dealer told me the cic pump runs 24 hrs and goes through the filter with no bypass and comes out either the waterfall or in the tub. So who is right?