Sundance, Hot Springs, or?

[bimmerdog]

Guys the salesman at Jacuzzi is right when he said the Moto-Massage only hits your spine.  It does. It is the Moto-Massage DX that hits both sides of the spine.  The wife and I both hated the Moto-Massage in the Vanguard because of it hitting the middle of the spine.  Yes you can move from side to side and it will hit different parts of the back.  Now the Moto-Massage DX was fantastic.  So as a good consumer that has done their homework they would make sure to tell the salesman the difference between the two Moto-Massages. It is always fun to help a sales person to learn a little more about his own product or a competitors. 

[Spatech_tuo]

Guys the salesman at Jacuzzi is right when he said the Moto-Massage only hits your spine.  It does. It is the Moto-Massage DX that hits both sides of the spine.  The wife and I both hated the Moto-Massage in the Vanguard because of it hitting the middle of the spine.  Yes you can move from side to side and it will hit different parts of the back.  Now the Moto-Massage DX was fantastic.  So as a good consumer that has done their homework they would make sure to tell the salesman the difference between the two Moto-Massages. It is always fun to help a sales person to learn a little more about his own product or a competitors.

But was the salesman really only referring to the single moto when he made the statement or was he saying it in a generic manner that would cover both types to the uninitiated because they're trying to sell a hot tub? Until the earth stops spinning there will always be some salesmen of hot tubs, cars, mattresses... that bring up the competition and try to knock them in one way or another to build themselves up to help make a sale. As long as the customer realizes this it really doesn't hurt much other than maybe the reputation of the person saying it if the customer is savvy enough and sometimes it makes the person go back to the other store to ask follow-up questions which can be a double edged sword.

[bimmerdog]

Guys the salesman at Jacuzzi is right when he said the Moto-Massage only hits your spine.  It does. It is the Moto-Massage DX that hits both sides of the spine.  The wife and I both hated the Moto-Massage in the Vanguard because of it hitting the middle of the spine.  Yes you can move from side to side and it will hit different parts of the back.  Now the Moto-Massage DX was fantastic.  So as a good consumer that has done their homework they would make sure to tell the salesman the difference between the two Moto-Massages. It is always fun to help a sales person to learn a little more about his own product or a competitors.

But was the salesman really only referring to the single moto when he made the statement or was he saying it in a generic manner that would cover both types to the uninitiated because they're trying to sell a hot tub? Until the earth stops spinning there will always be some salesmen of hot tubs, cars, mattresses... that bring up the competition and try to knock them in one way or another to build themselves up to help make a sale. As long as the customer realizes this it really doesn't hurt much other than maybe the reputation of the person saying it if the customer is savvy enough and sometimes it makes the person go back to the other store to ask follow-up questions which can be a double edged sword.

You are correct that we don't know what he was referring to.  With all the information at our finger tips (good and bad)  we as consumers should go into buying a product that cost a good amount of money with "some" knowledge of the product we are looking at.  The salesman is there to sell his product one way or another.  A quality produce will sell itself. 

[Hot Spring Ace]

Guys the salesman at Jacuzzi is right when he said the Moto-Massage only hits your spine.  It does. It is the Moto-Massage DX that hits both sides of the spine.  The wife and I both hated the Moto-Massage in the Vanguard because of it hitting the middle of the spine.  Yes you can move from side to side and it will hit different parts of the back.  Now the Moto-Massage DX was fantastic.  So as a good consumer that has done their homework they would make sure to tell the salesman the difference between the two Moto-Massages. It is always fun to help a sales person to learn a little more about his own product or a competitors.

But was the salesman really only referring to the single moto when he made the statement or was he saying it in a generic manner that would cover both types to the uninitiated because they're trying to sell a hot tub? Until the earth stops spinning there will always be some salesmen of hot tubs, cars, mattresses... that bring up the competition and try to knock them in one way or another to build themselves up to help make a sale. As long as the customer realizes this it really doesn't hurt much other than maybe the reputation of the person saying it if the customer is savvy enough and sometimes it makes the person go back to the other store to ask follow-up questions which can be a double edged sword.

You are correct that we don't know what he was referring to.  With all the information at our finger tips (good and bad)  we as consumers should go into buying a product that cost a good amount of money with "some" knowledge of the product we are looking at.  The salesman is there to sell his product one way or another.  A quality produce will sell itself.

LOL, he or she was just making a blanket statement and he knows it. Salespeople who sell based on negative comments about their competition don't worry about being specific in their knocks or even necessarily accurate. Do all salespeople use this tactic? Certianly not. Is it salespeople of a certian brand that use this tacitc? No, it is certainly not brand specific though some of the stronger brands see their salespeople do less of this and in fact train them not to but there is a certain human elelment that sometimes takes over.

In reality all the Hot Spring Highlife spas have a type of moto-massage except the Prodigy which does not get that jet type. As you'll see in any Hot Spring store the dual moto is the jet of choice in them:

Grandee - 2 Dual motos
Vista - 1 Dula moto
Envoy - 1 Dual moto
Aria - 1 Dula moto
Vanguard - 1 Dual moto + 1 single moto
Sovereign - 1 Dual moto
Jetsetter - 1 Dual moto

The old "the moto jet only hits your spine" has been around for decades. Once the dual moto came out the validity of that knock was basically elminated yet they still use it. Why? Because it suits them but thats fine, let the customer go back to the Hot Spring dealer to find out for themselves.

[bimmerdog]

Hot Springs Ace.  When will HS be getting  rid of the Moto-Massage and just have the DX?  It seems to me that some of the criticism has been correct.  It looks like it is being fazed out or will be sent down to the Limelight models.  How many years ago did all the Hot Springs have atleast one Moto-Massage in the tub and now it has only one tub with the Moto-Massage. 

The interesting thing to me was when my wife and I both said to the Hot Springs salesman that we didn't like the Moto-Massage but loved the DX he even said he hears that from to many customers.   Good for Hot Springs for making a good product even better by replacing the M-M with the DX. 

"The old "the moto jet only hits your spine" has been around for decades. Once the dual moto came out the validity of that knock was basically elminated yet they still use it. Why? Because it suits them but thats fine, let the customer go back to the Hot Spring dealer to find out for themselves"  They still use that "old moto jet only hits your spine" because it is true.  Until HS has no tub with the M-M then how can any one really say that a salesperson from a competitive line of tubs is saying this about all HS tubs.  If I was a salesman and a customer came into my store and told me they were looking at a Vangaurd and I said the M-M was not that good because it just hits your spine would I be a bad salesman? 

One thing my dad taught me was you better be able to prove what you are saying to a customer.  I see to much on here being said ours is better because.....................I was told it is.  Why can't ANY spa company have real world data to back up what they say. And if they do where is it so I can read it

[Spatech_tuo]

Would it be ok for a Toyota dealer to say "Chevys get poor gas mileage"? The Chevy dealer of course would say "Not true, look at the Spark, the Sonic, the Cruz, the ...". Wait though, that Toyota dealer is right because some Chevys don't get good gas mileage.

Bimmer I think you're being a little biased in your backing of a salesperson who would be go that route. If the salesman said "the single moto jets hit your spine" that would be fine but lets not be naive, I'd bet more than a couple dollars he used the "moto" term generically.


Sales people should stick to selling based on the merits on what they have on their sales room floor, I'm sure your dad would agree.

[Spatech_tuo]

Thank you again for your advise.  I was informed today that the envoy has an extra $250 off but has been wet since May.  To me this makes it a used tub for almost a year.  What are your thoughts on that?  I've read on here that people tend to stay away from tubs that have been wet at the dealership that long?

I'm sure there are some that wouldn’t want a floor model by definition alone and would only want one that is still in the package even if they can get a better deal on the floor model but I haven't seen people here on in person say they want to stay away from this situation.

If it is a floor model it will have a full warranty (but always verify). All dealers treat floor models differently so how much they discount it varies greatly. I personally wouldn't really hesitate as long as they gave me new filters and I was getting a good deal for taking the floor model but I'm not the one buying it. If you're talking about it from the standpoint of will the use of it on the showroom floor accelerate "the aging process" I wouldn't worry much about that other than what you can see (scratches, etc.).

[bimmerdog]

Would it be ok for a Toyota dealer to say "Chevys get poor gas mileage"? The Chevy dealer of course would say "Not true, look at the Spark, the Sonic, the Cruz, the ...". Wait though, that Toyota dealer is right because some Chevys don't get good gas mileage.

Bimmer I think you're being a little biased in your backing of a salesperson who would be go that route. If the salesman said "the single moto jets hit your spine" that would be fine but lets not be naive, I'd bet more than a couple dollars he used the "moto" term generically.




Sales people should stick to selling based on the merits on what they have on their sales room floor, I'm sure your dad would agree.

If you walk into a Toyota dealer and not even tell the salesperson what you are buying from Chev then he has every right to say that Chevy's get poor gas mileage. 

If I walk into a spa dealer and say "I'm buying a Hot Springs"  the sales persons says "the Moto-Massage only hits your spine"  He is not incorrect.  I agree that most sales people do use the Moto-Massage the wrong way to help in their sell.  This is where Joe Public needs to learn about what he...or...she is looking to buy and do a little research.

[Wkerat]

Thanks again everyone.  As mentioned I contacted the Hot Springs dealer and he mentioned it is a different moto massage.  Since I plan to wet test I did not take it to seriously.  The Jacuzxi dealer did say Hot Springs and Sundance are both good, but also tried to point out negatives about the dealers  without directly saying them.  The only issue I have is based on comparisons I am looking at comparable models, yet instill cannot see where the extra cost for the Jacuzzi is coming from.  I hope to schedule all 3 wet tests this week and see where things stand.  Right now I am leaning towards the Sundance Victoria followed by the envoy, but feel the envoy needs to be a little better deal for me to buy the display model because for the little extra I will order exactly what I want. Since he has two wet envoy's (one in each store) I have a feeling he will give me a better deal. 

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Price wise you are looking at 2 different series.  So If your looking at the Sundance Victoria you should be looking at the Jacuzzi JlXL and see where they are price wise in comparison, they are for the most part identical.
 
   The J-465 is more inline with the 800 series Sundance Cameo. Price a Cameo out and see if its on par with the Jacuzzi J-465   If you like the lounge, the Sundance Altimar or the J-355 would line up nicely also.   You have to remember each dealer has different overhead and what they ask for their spa might be different from another Jacuzzi dealer across the street with a bigger store.   Now if it's one company with Jacuzzi in one store and Sundance in another they should be very close in price within reason..   

 As far as the envoy it sounds like a good price, just not much in the way of leg jets, but that may not make a difference..

  Once you are done researching and wet testing narrow it down to what you like between 2 spa's and go from there, you are looking at 2 different but very good mnfgs, between Jacuzzi/Sundance and H,springs. 

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

Thank you again for your advise.  I was informed today that the envoy has an extra $250 off but has been wet since May.  To me this makes it a used tub for almost a year.  What are your thoughts on that?  I've read on here that people tend to stay away from tubs that have been wet at the dealership that long?

warranty starts on day of delivery so your covered there...Its also safe to assume that since the tub is wet that someone there is competent to maintain it properly so I would not worry, but like stated above check for scratches, dents, dings, etc. so there are no surprises on day of delivery and I'd try to negotiate a little more "floor model discount"...just my opinion

[Wkerat]

Thank you! I just spoke to the Sundance dealer and they are going to fill the Victoria for a wet test next week. Along with that they knocked another $500 off with no negotiation for the February special so that makes it very appealing as I think they will go even further if I negotiate a bit, but on paper it seems like a lot of spa for the money. I hope to also wet test the envoy the day of or evening before so I hope that narrows it down.  I did price the cameo as well and he came in $400 less than then the J-375 for an ordered unit and $2400 less an the 465 so I contacted a different Jacuzzi dealer to see if they are more flexible. Thanks to everyone's help I am slowly narrowing this search down.

[Spatech_tuo]

Thank you! I just spoke to the Sundance dealer and they are going to fill the Victoria for a wet test next week. Along with that they knocked another $500 off with no negotiation for the February special so that makes it very appealing as I think they will go even further if I negotiate a bit, but on paper it seems like a lot of spa for the money. I hope to also wet test the envoy the day of or evening before so I hope that narrows it down.  I did price the cameo as well and he came in $400 less than then the J-375 for an ordered unit and $2400 less an the 465 so I contacted a different Jacuzzi dealer to see if they are more flexible. Thanks to everyone's help I am slowly narrowing this search down.

I suggest you do 2 things. Try to schedule the wet tests for the same day if possible so that you can compare them properly. When scheduling it or when you are there find a way to let it be known you've scheduled competing brands for testing that same day/weekend so they know they need to win your business which will help as you negotiate.

Never hesisitate to negotiate but also when they give you pricing ask them to write down exactly what is included: steps, cover, chems (is it just the starter kit), lifter (and which kind exactly), will the lifter be installed (typically yes but make sure), subpanel, orientation... so you know you're comparing apples to apples.

[Wkerat]

Very good point, I got stuff in writing, but did want to verify cover and lift.  Never thought of amount of chems and if the cover lift would be installed.  I know two places deliver to your location as they want to do a site inspection first, but the third did not clarify.

[Wkerat]

Thank you everyone for all of your help. After negotiating I rounded the Jacuzzi out because even their best price was almost $2000 more then the others prior to negotiating.  The closest they came was with the lxl, but that was still too high so my plan was to wet test the Victoria and envoy.  I ended up wet testing the Sundance today and loved it!  The salesman was great, went over everything, and when hooking it up even left the panel off so I could see inside (this was a 2012 display model they had dry, but filled for me).  After the wet test he told me he had bad news and someone else purchased that tub this morning just before I came.  He said that since I was working with him first though he would match the deal, but would not be able to offer me the $500 factory rebate, on a custom ordered 2013 (in the color I wanted to begin with).  Anyway, long story short, I told him i was very dissapointed as i had cash in hand and that I was going  to go test the envoy because I really wanted one soon, they had it in stock, and I was ready to purchase today.  With this I got him to not only match my original deal with the $500 rebate, but also knock another $500 off and upgrade the stairs from basic plastic ones to the Sundance ones that match!  I was so happy with this deal that I put my deposit down and skipped testing the envoy as he was only a few hundred more than the Hot Springs Flair and a few thousand less than the envoy, which has been wet since May.   Now all I need to do is get the electric in and wait, but should have it in March.