Ongoing Pseudomonas Problems

[stuart]

In bad cases of biofilm like that we do 3-4 cups of bleach with the tub at 104 and run it over night, then we do a AquaFinesse tablet followed up by Swirl Away....it's a process but it usually gets rid of it.

[Walter White]

I'm going more extreme than anything I've seen here.  First we'll do several days of spa algaecide plus high (2oz per day) dichlor.

Then throw away old filters, follow procedure for chemical cleansing here:
http://www.floridahotspring.com/pdf/RemovalofPseudomonasBacteria.pdf
Then Aquafinesse tablet then Spa System Flush.
Then somehow disassemble pipes as much as possible, wet vac them dry, and see if I can find the residence for the bacteria or mold.
Finally, install new filters.

I'm trying to synthesize advice from different sources and err on the side of overkill, but I want to be careful not to mix and match incorrectly.  Do I have the order of operations right, above?  Do chlorine levels need to be neutralized before using Spa Clean & Spa System Flush? 

[Wizard]

Try The Saltwater Spa Scriptures. It will solve your problem.

[Wizard]

Walter, sorry your tub isn't more relaxing. Your problem could be solved quite easily. There is an entire website devoted to this very issue preventhottubrash.com

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

All of that just to sell your book?

[Walter White]

Well, over a year later, my pseudomonas problems continue.  After going in the spa I develop an itch that persists.  If I go in for several days in a row, a feint rash appears on my side and the itch lasts several weeks.

A few white flakes appear in the water if I run the jets for a few minutes.  Also, while the jets are going, these white-scum bubbles develop, the fluid dynamics seem to cause the scum to gather toward the center of the spa.  It is unsettling to see this white bacterial glob amassing, especially if you're in the water.  Turn off the jets and let the bubbles pop and it vanishes into the water leaving it looking crystal clear (aside from those few white flakes).

I followed a process for removal of pseudomonas bacteria (outlined long ago in this thread) that involved using a net to collect these white particles, but after basically spending 3 days straight, sunrise to sunset, the white flakes kept coming.

In the time since I last posted about this, I have used spa purge once and Spa System Flush probably 5 times now.  I kept my chlorine levels very high constantly, and superchlorinated (to 100ppm) and raised water levels as high as possible the day before doing a spa flush and refill.  I've changed filters twice.

Thanks for listening to my spa horror story.  To me it seems clear that the next step is to start taking apart the pipes and trying to hunt down where the stuff has "taken residence."  I would love to hand it over to professionals, unfortunately no spa guy in town (Las Vegas) is willing to get into the pipes.

Any ideas for how to pull the spa apart and find the damned bacterial cesspool?  I think Chas said that the stuff frequently takes up residence in water features, but I don't know how to get to that part of the spa.  Unscrew all the side panels and then disconnect the pipes leading to the waterfall?

blegh.  if anyone knows of a spa pro in Vegas that could help me, please pass on his contact info.

[Chartreux]

Is your dealer not helping you out? Seems like the dealer you bought it from should be helping you. Things like this make me very leary of buying a spa...I expect a spa to require some work, but what your going through sounds like spa hell...wish I had advise to help you...

[chem geek]

Two things.  First, since the time you last reported I found out about Ahh-Some that people have reported (as do test reports) does a better job than Spa System Flush so I've switched to recommending it instead.  Second, did you ever try the Aquafinesse Spa Clean Tablet?  If you've got biofilms, these products are supposed to help get rid of them.  I'm really sorry you are still having problems with your spa.  If anything works for you, please let us know so we can help others with the same issue.

[Walter White]

Chartreux: My dealer seems to have caused the problem when he told me "Don't worry about balancing pH, just put some bromine tablets in the floater."  He wasn't much help when I reported what was going on.  If only I had gone to troublefreepool.com or somewhere else that emphasized that water maintenance is NOT to be taken lightly, I suspect things would have been fine.  My advice to you is to do tons of homework on water maintenance before you buy a spa.

chem geek: Yeah, I tried the Aquafinesse tablet, too.  I'll try Ahh-some on my next flush, thanks for the recommendation.  I'll definitely reply here if I find a solution.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

  This sounds like something more than a PH issue, probably the longest issue I have ever read of or seen..   

[Vinny]

Is it possible that you are allergic to bromine, the MPS or whatever else you put into the water? Or maybe the hot water is drying out your skin. I was under the impression that hot tub rash comes about like chicken pox. Maybe what started out as a dirty tub is now clean but you're sensitive to something in there. I remember reading on Doc's forum and maybe here where people were sensitive to the hot water and they needed to moisturize after exiting the tub.

I have never gotten hot tub rash but my son and a friend went in my tub, the friend got it but my son didn't. I blasted the tub with bleach and super disinfected it after that incident but I am suspecting the friend was sensitive to something in the tub. I guess a person can be more sensitive to the bacteria then another person but I would think it should show up somewhat - one person rashes where the other person itches. I think the fact that if you go into your tub once and don't get the "chicken pox" type rash that it is more of a sensitivity then a infection ... but I am not a doctor and have never had to battle this problem.

As far as taking your spa apart ... I think you will be undertaking a massive and fruitless project. If your spa is full foamed I would think it is impossible, if it is thermopane you may be able to physically clean some of the water ways but I think you'll never get into a water feature successfully.

Hopefully, something will work and you can get to really enjoy your tub!

[Walter White]

Is it possible that you are allergic to bromine, the MPS or whatever else you put into the water? Or maybe the hot water is drying out your skin.

It's possible.  Here are my reasons for believing it is bacterial: I have gone in many other hot tubs and pools over the years and never had any sort of reaction.  Long ago I switched from bromine to bleach, and I'm not using any of the chemicals that I used in the spa when I first got it (when I got the severe rash and flu-like symptoms that went away after I started antibiotics.).  The doc reported my rash was consistent with hot tub folliculitis.  The white flakes/white snotty stuff I see in the spa is consistent with descriptions of pseudomonas contamination.

I'm the only one who has ever had symptoms.  However, I'm pretty much the only person who goes in the spa.  For some reason, my friends aren't crazy about going in .  Even before problems started, friends who did go in only stayed in for maybe 15 minutes, and nobody went in more than once in a month.  I've been told some people are more susceptible to pseudomonas than others and I may be one of those people.  So my hypothesis is that others are not showing symptoms because they have far less exposure to the bacteria, and are somewhat less vulnerable to it than me.

As far as taking your spa apart ... I think you will be undertaking a massive and fruitless project. If your spa is full foamed I would think it is impossible, if it is thermopane you may be able to physically clean some of the water ways but I think you'll never get into a water feature successfully.

Thanks for the advice.  The spa is a Catalina Stealth Samoa.  I don't know the difference between full foamed and thermopane, but there is definitely a lot of foam inside it and it sure does seem massive and fruitless so far.  I may abort, unfortunately I'm out of ideas so I'll probably just blow all the water out of the lines and leave it empty.

[Sam]

Things like this make me very leary of buying a spa...I expect a spa to require some work, but what your going through sounds like spa hell...wish I had advise to help you...

Just so you know, this is the most extreme case that I have ever heard of.  To be honest, I rarely come across hot tub rash at all.  I wouldn't let this story be a factor in your decision to get a spa.  Though it is very unfortunate and it stinks that Walter is going through this, this really is an extreme example of a pretty rare phenomenon.  I'm personally inclined to think that there is more to the story than appears.

Good luck Walt.  I don't have any additional advice over what's been given.  Hot tubs can provide many health benefits and it stinks that for you, it has become a health hazard.

[Vinny]

Is it possible that you are allergic to bromine, the MPS or whatever else you put into the water? Or maybe the hot water is drying out your skin.

It's possible.  Here are my reasons for believing it is bacterial: I have gone in many other hot tubs and pools over the years and never had any sort of reaction.  Long ago I switched from bromine to bleach, and I'm not using any of the chemicals that I used in the spa when I first got it (when I got the severe rash and flu-like symptoms that went away after I started antibiotics.).  The doc reported my rash was consistent with hot tub folliculitis.  The white flakes/white snotty stuff I see in the spa is consistent with descriptions of pseudomonas contamination.

I'm the only one who has ever had symptoms.  However, I'm pretty much the only person who goes in the spa.  For some reason, my friends aren't crazy about going in .  Even before problems started, friends who did go in only stayed in for maybe 15 minutes, and nobody went in more than once in a month.  I've been told some people are more susceptible to pseudomonas than others and I may be one of those people.  So my hypothesis is that others are not showing symptoms because they have far less exposure to the bacteria, and are somewhat less vulnerable to it than me.

As far as taking your spa apart ... I think you will be undertaking a massive and fruitless project. If your spa is full foamed I would think it is impossible, if it is thermopane you may be able to physically clean some of the water ways but I think you'll never get into a water feature successfully.

Thanks for the advice.  The spa is a Catalina Stealth Samoa.  I don't know the difference between full foamed and thermopane, but there is definitely a lot of foam inside it and it sure does seem massive and fruitless so far.  I may abort, unfortunately I'm out of ideas so I'll probably just blow all the water out of the lines and leave it empty.

What you are describing seems like you may be more susceptible to the rash than others and since you've had success going into other tubs then I agree it is something about your tub. Sounds like your problem was the scenario with my son's friend. Sounds reasonable that the white flakes are the biofilm breaking apart unless you have hard water and it's the calcium flaking off. So you've bleached, used one of the products that Chem Geek suggested and are going to use the other ... I never heard of Ahh-some before and actually picked some up on ebay today since my tub has been sitting for a few months unused. If you go to their website they have a prolonged procedure on eliminating a biofilm and it may require a few treatments. They also suggested to have chlorine in the water to kill the bacteria as it strips away the biofilm.

Some questions I have to ask - when you add chlorine (added after you go in) how long does it last? It would seem that at this point if you stripped some of the biofilm layer off the chlorine would attack the exposed bacteria and would dissipate quickly. So if you added 3 PPM chlorine and it lasted with some residue for 2 or 3 hours you tub is chemically "safe" vs it being gone in 20 minutes or less. What is your combined chlorine reading when chlorine is dissipated? If you answered this in the thread I apologize as I didn't read the whole thing and quite honestly Chem Geek can run rings around me about this stuff. Do you soak with some chlorine in the tub - some of us use the Vermonter's method of chlorine disinfection but if you are soaking in the tub without chlorine then that can be a problem - my understanding is if something like bacteria is around and chlorine is present (also assuming you don't have old water with a high level of stabilizer) the bacteria will be killed in 4 to 10 seconds per this website: http://www.waterandhealth.org/matter-fecal-matter-swimming-pool-filters/  but you also have to take into account your body on the chlorine situation.

I'm sure you've run through the gamut but just in case ...whenever I do a super disinfection/spa pipe cleaning I always run the pumps, change the diverters and air and try to get as much action out of the jests as possible. I also try to get as much pressure coming from the separate sections of the diverter. I also run the pumps for at least an hour again running the air at times and not. Also I clean the spa shell with the super chlorinated water, dip the headrests and filter cover into the water for a while as well.

As for the difference in full foam vs thermopane - it sounds like you have a full foam tub ... a thermopane tub would have insulation on the panels of the tub and you would see all the plumbing.

Don't give up just yet! Try the Ahh-some, maybe give it a couple of 24 hour cleanings/disinfections, run the jets and water features and hopefully you'll get to the end of the biofilm problem soon.

[Walter White]

What you are describing seems like you may be more susceptible to the rash than others and since you've had success going into other tubs then I agree it is something about your tub. Sounds like your problem was the scenario with my son's friend. Sounds reasonable that the white flakes are the biofilm breaking apart unless you have hard water and it's the calcium flaking off.

Calcium flaking off is a possibility.  Vegas does have hard water.  Everyone's refrigerators have white calcium buildup underneath the water dispenser.  I'm not getting any more of the big rubbery stretchy pieces (see photo that looks like it has a fingerprint on it earlier in the thread) but I am still getting stuff building up in the filters (see other photo from earlier in the thread).  Maybe these are simply calcium.

I just refilled the spa (and superchlorinated it).  The water appears mostly clear at first glance, but if you look closer there are hundreds of white particles floating around, mostly maybe about the size of the tip of a ball point pen.  When the jets run, this stuff tends to accumulate into the bubbles swirling around, mostly the bubbles in one corner of the spa.  Here is some of it, along with grime apparently left over from doing the Spa System Flush (A little bit of the brownish grime always rises to the top of the bubbles when I do a flush, most of it I scoop while the flush is in progress.  In the past, the brown stuff has not persisted, unlike the white.), caught on my pool net.



I've seen this many times before.  For the most part I can only see this during daylight hours.  Once I install the filters and let the circ pump run for a couple of hours, I don't see any particles at all; the water will look crystal clear except for a few (slightly larger) white particles that come out each time I run the jets for a few minutes.  Any ideas on how to distinguish calcium flakes from white biofilm particles?

Some questions I have to ask - when you add chlorine (added after you go in) how long does it last? It would seem that at this point if you stripped some of the biofilm layer off the chlorine would attack the exposed bacteria and would dissipate quickly. So if you added 3 PPM chlorine and it lasted with some residue for 2 or 3 hours you tub is chemically "safe" vs it being gone in 20 minutes or less. What is your combined chlorine reading when chlorine is dissipated?

I go in very rarely so I don't have much data on how long a dose of chlorine lasts specifically after a soak.  However, I do monitor chlorine on almost a daily basis and have been surprised that it does not deplete rapidly.  It depletes more along the lines that I've heard are normal.  Like if I get a reading of 4ppm today, 24 hours later I'll get a reading of 3ppm.  Does that in itself definitively rule out bacterial contamination as the problem?

In early April I guinea pigged myself, deliberately going in 3 or 4 times in a week.  Afterwards my sides were itchy (the same area where the rash was long ago) for several weeks.  But it felt itchy in a specific way, I remember the same feeling as before when I definitely had some sort of infection.  The best way I can describe it is not so much itchy as "inflamed" or "searing," though the pain level wasn't very high.

Do you soak with some chlorine in the tub?

I pretty religiously make sure Cl is between 2 and 4ppm before I get in.

Many thanks to Vinny and everyone for all the feedback.