Ongoing Pseudomonas Problems

[Vinny]

I looked at the other photos and it looks as if that other stuff was rather large and I would say that it could have been a biofilm. The little stuff, I'm not sure if it could be a biofilm or something else. Have you ever tried to use a hose end filter? http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Disposable-Hose-End-Fill-Filter-P785C57.aspx?zmam=55673001&zmas=1&zmac=10&zmap=FC3128&gclid=CJa748rRyr4CFfQbtAodsg8ARg I ask because if the stuff is coming from your water supply it may appear to come from the tub.

I have no idea how to differentiate between calcium or a biofilm.

The brown goop is an indication that the cleanser is finding something to clean ... it could be personal products (hairspray or lotion), body gunk, detergents from clothing or bacteria. I always get brown goop whenever I clean the spa. It's amazing what hot water takes out of our bodies.

The fact that chlorine lasts a while is an indication that there isn't a large amount of bacteria (or any) floating around unattached to a biofilm. From what I've read biofilms tend to be very resistant to regular doses of chlorine which is why people say to use 50-100 PPM chlorine when fighting a biofilm. The high level of chlorine is stripping the layers of the biofilm, killing the bacteria and stripping more layers, killing more bacteria ... From that website I posted it claims that the bacteria for the hot tub rash (not in a biofilm) takes 4-10 seconds to die at 2 PPM chlorine, more chlorine should work a little faster and if not faster last longer to have a longer kill time.

On the area where you were itchy - were jets hitting you around that spot. When I first got my tub I sat in one seat and I noticed that I was always kind of itchy.

Honestly, I guess it could be a biofilm if you have low flow water features in your tub. But if you are maintaining the tub properly (and it sounds like you are), have done spa flushes (and I would still try that Ahh-some), superchlorinated the tub to at least 50 PPM, made sure that all the jets, air and features are running, played around with the diverters while flushing and superchlorinating I don't see how it could be.

If it is calcium you are seeing and you don't have one I would suggest a Taylor test kit, I use the K-2005, and they have a booklet on how to balance water, part of that is adjusting some items (PH and/or alkalinity) because of high water hardness.

[Walter White]

I got a new garden hose after the first incident.  I would say the problem is with the tub and not the water supply, because a freshly filled tub is clear until I run the jets.

Yes, the itch was in the regions where jets were hitting my sides.  The same was true of the severe rash I got that started the problem over a year ago: it showed up only in spots where jets were blasting me or under my swim trunks.

Honestly, I guess it could be a biofilm if you have low flow water features in your tub. But if you are maintaining the tub properly (and it sounds like you are), have done spa flushes (and I would still try that Ahh-some), superchlorinated the tub to at least 50 PPM, made sure that all the jets, air and features are running, played around with the diverters while flushing and superchlorinating I don't see how it could be.

Well this is good to hear.  It sounds like you have the background to be able to visualize what happens below the surface of the spa(?).  I just have no clue which makes it pretty hard for me to zero in on sensible explanations.  If playing around with the diverters means alternating through all the different possible combinations of jets running, and then experimenting with turning some of the dials near jets from on to off and back, then yes I have done all those things.

I have noticed that most of the white stuff, whatever it is, mostly comes out from the jets at one corner of the spa.

[Chartreux]

What model hot tub/spa did you get? Just wondering...
The sell hose filters for spas maybe use a hose filter...might help.
This must be maddening for you, I was hoping things were turning around for you. So very sorry your having to go through all this and left with no help from a dealer...Maybe ask the dealer for some sort of  help...

[Vinny]

I got a new garden hose after the first incident.  I would say the problem is with the tub and not the water supply, because a freshly filled tub is clear until I run the jets.

Yes, the itch was in the regions where jets were hitting my sides.  The same was true of the severe rash I got that started the problem over a year ago: it showed up only in spots where jets were blasting me or under my swim trunks.

Honestly, I guess it could be a biofilm if you have low flow water features in your tub. But if you are maintaining the tub properly (and it sounds like you are), have done spa flushes (and I would still try that Ahh-some), superchlorinated the tub to at least 50 PPM, made sure that all the jets, air and features are running, played around with the diverters while flushing and superchlorinating I don't see how it could be.

Well this is good to hear.  It sounds like you have the background to be able to visualize what happens below the surface of the spa(?).  I just have no clue which makes it pretty hard for me to zero in on sensible explanations.  If playing around with the diverters means alternating through all the different possible combinations of jets running, and then experimenting with turning some of the dials near jets from on to off and back, then yes I have done all those things.

I have noticed that most of the white stuff, whatever it is, mostly comes out from the jets at one corner of the spa.

I guess the white flakes come back every time you run the spa and not just on new water, when you chlorinate do you run all the pumps and make sure no areas are turned off? Are you able to remove a jet and look inside down into the opening, maybe stick a finger in there and see if you feel anything. I found this: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Inorganic_Chemistry/Descriptive_Chemistry/p-Block_Elements/Main_Group_Reactions/Case_Study%3A_Hard_Water  and it explains about hard water.

Yes, the diverters control the amount of water coming out of the jets and can usually turn off a section. A question that I didn't ask before - you are using regular bleach, not scented and not that "splashless bleach" that Walmart is selling that isn't real bleach?

Back when I first purchased my tub there was a lot of discussion about the size of the jets and the irritating affects of smaller vs larger jets ... How large are the jets that cause itchiness? Do you switch seats and do the jets in those seats cause issues? An experiment maybe ... try soaking without using any jets and see how you feel, maybe if one soak goes OK try a few soaks in a row without using the jets and see if any itchiness happens.

I am wondering if the problem is no longer a biofilm but an irritation to having your skin being "roughed up" by the jets regardless if their big or small. If you get a rash while soaking without jets then obviously it is not the jets. What makes me think it's not a biofilm is that the pieces are small and if you are flaking off pieces of the biofilm you would be killing the stuff floating along with the layer below it (possibly). The small flaking I think would indicate that it is dying so at some point it would stop especially when you superchlorinate, spa purge and everything else you probably have done. Also, if it were free floating bacteria and it was hitting your skin while soaking in a tub with chlorine it would be killed in 4 to 10 seconds assuming the water wasn't polluted with bacteria and the fact that chlorine stays in the tub for a while indicates that there isn't that many free floating bacteria.

I am just throwing out things to hopefully have you enjoy your tub!

[Vinny]

Walter,

I don't know how often you come here to either browse or see /add to this thread but I wanted to state that I received the Ahh-some Bio cleaner and it seemed to do some cleaning of gunk.

My tub was just sitting there, not used and full of water ... I kind of got out of soaking in the tub. I needed to order a new cover as the original was 9 YO and probably should have been replaced at least 3 years ago and it is really ratty looking. Anyway since I own the tub and spending money on a new cover I decided that I should get this tub back to the way it was and use it! Since the cover is coming some time this coming week I figured I can take my time and clean the tub well.

My tub is 400 gallons and I used 1 tablespoon of Ahh-some and it foamed up a storm which is what I expected even though it was less product then the company said to use (1 teaspoon for every 100 gallons). The foam turned brown and left a ring around the tub. I am doing the super cleaning and leaving it overnight, run the jets a few more times, will drain, rinse and do another treatment of the Ahh-some again leaving overnight. I am please to see that it cleaned something but I did not see black or white flakes in the water.

I did add bleach as recommended - a lot of bleach - over a quart - figuring I will also kill whatever gets brought up by the cleaner. After a few hours I measured the chlorine level and it was down to 2 and there was a distinct "chlorine smell" which indicates that the chlorine has bonded to something (bacteria?)

I will add my findings after my 2nd treatment, hopefully all the brown gunk was removed today.

[chem geek]

If you smell a lot of chlorine, especially if it's that "pool smell" as opposed to "clean bleach" smell, then that's chloramines and is chlorine bonded to ammonia or sometimes some types of volatile organics.  Since I don't know exactly what is in Ahh-Some (I suspect some powerful surfactants, but don't know details) I can't guarantee that the smell isn't from chlorine reacting with something in that product.  The main point is to remove biofilms, greases, etc. and kill off any remaining bacteria.

[Vinny]

Chem Geek,

I realize that is is the combined chlorine that smelled but I also didn't know what the chlorine bonded to which is why the ? In the parentheses.

The ahh-some info states that you should use chlorine to kill off the bacteria. It really stunk as I estimate that I put in more then 50 PPM of chlorine. Whether It bonded to bacteria or ahh-some I just thought it was interesting that around 50 PPM of chlorine was used in a few hours. A REALLY DIRTY TUB!

I plan on using the ahh-some again and see if I get more brown gunk. I only bought the 2 oz bottle so I have 1 more tablespoon treatment then a 2 teaspoon treatment if need be. I also have some natural chemistry spa puge coming as I bought that before reading about ahh-some. I have used swirl away in the past but my tub has never been left unattended as it was this winter/spring ... I guess it won't hurt anything to buy more ahh-some if need be.

[Vinny]

Walter,

One last post unless you or anybody else has questions. Seeing what it did to my tub I would be very surprised that if you had any biofilm living in your tub that this product wouldn't remove most or all of it.

I cleaned my tub with that Ahh-some 3 x, the 1st time it was a 12 hour soak and the other 2 was a 24 hour soak. I ran the jets initially on each cleaning and cleaned up the mess that it removed, then I ran the jets intermittently as long as I could before going to bed. The first cleaning got a lot of gunk out during the initial cleaning and the next morning. I drained the tub, cleaned the shell again, refilled and put more Ahh-some in again (less then the original amount) and it took out a lot of gunk again; at the end of the 24 hour run there was considerably less gunk than in the beginning. Repeated with 3rd cleaning - less gunk then what was in the second cleaning and after 24 hours I had very little brown gunk coming out. BTW every cleaning also consisted of using chlorine to kill anything that chlorine kills. I didn't rinse in between cleanings and I left the filters in so maybe some of the brown gunk was coming from the filters in the end. I don't know if a 4th cleaning would have resulted in no gunk but in my opinion my tub is cleaner then when I started. I filled it up to run plain chlorinated water through it to rinse it out  - I will be dumping that water on Friday morning (new cover arriving Friday).

I will be finishing the cleaning with at least 10 PPM wash down of the entire shell/headrests using a magic eraser so the shell should be squeaky clean.

Walter, I hope you read this and try the Ahh-some; it seemed to clean a lot in my tub.

[Walter White]

A while back someone asked me to report if I was ever able to resolve the problem.  I never did do another round of flushing out the spa... Having tried at least four different spa flush products, weeks of 100ppm superchlorination and lots of draining, scrubbing, and refilling, I had to try something else.

So I just started guineapigging myself, experimenting with short soaks every few days at first, then longer and more frequent ones.  Eventually I found the courage to sit in the corner of the jets that produce the white particles.  No rash or other problems ever came up.

It's embarassing to admit but the contamination was probably eradicated after the first time I did a decontamination procedure, and I've probably been making a big deal out of nothing ever since.  Dunno what to say except thanks to the many people who chimed in with ideas.  One thing that's interesting about the whole situation though is that the white particles still come out when I flip on the jets. Don't know what they are and I suspect they'll never go away, but they are apparently harmless.

[Quickbeam]

Walter, thanks for reporting back and congratulations on solving your problems. Glad you are now able to enjoy your spa. Maybe the white particles are calcium flaking off, as someone had suggested earlier in this thread???

[Walter White]

Walter, thanks for reporting back and congratulations on solving your problems. Glad you are now able to enjoy your spa. Maybe the white particles are calcium flaking off, as someone had suggested earlier in this thread???

Thank you.  Yeah, at this point I'm thinking calcium, too.