Ongoing Pseudomonas Problems

[Walter White]

One week after purchasing my new hot tub, I developed Hot Tub Folliculitis (Dermatologist said she thinks I have a particularly severe case of it).  I did not see any white flakes anywhere in the spa, nor was there any white snotty stuff in the filters, both of which I'm told are telltale signs of Pseudomonas.  What I had noticed was a bacterial smell from the tub, just above the waterline.  It smelled the way a sponge starts to smell if you leave it soaking wet in the kitchen sink for weeks at a time.

A relevant sidenote: as I was filling my spa, I called my dealer and asked him for "Day One of Spa Owning 101."  For a first-time spa owner, making sure you do everything right can be kind of overwhelming.  For instance, I didn't know whether to start by balancing the pH or what.  As I was calling him I was figuring that's where I'd start.  But he said I don't have to bother with balancing pH so long as I change the water svery three months.  He said just use the shock (MPS), the "Stain Out," and put a couple bromine tablets in the floater and everything will be fine.  These were all chemicals he had provided me as freebies.  So I did as he said, and a week later I had this terrible rash.  (It weeped puss, caused severe feverish syndromes, and responded to antibiotics... this is very clearly bacterial, not a bromine allergy or something).

Anyway, following decontamination instructions I found on the web, I soaked my spa filters in 10% sodium hypochlorite for about 5 hours, used spa purge, drained my water the next morning(it was clear), spray and scrubbed all the walls and the underside of the spa cover with the 10% bleach solution, refilled the spa, balanced the pH, then added enough dichlor to raise Chlorine levels to 100ppm and ran jets for 1.5 hours.  Then I drained the water again, refilled it, balanced the pH, shocked the water with dichlor.

By this time I was starting to get the hang of water balancing, although the day after using the refilled tub, I was surprised to see the Br level was down to zero.  I immediately added dichlor and for a couple days used dichlor to maintain sanitation levels while scratching my head because it seemed excessive.  Some research led me to a post explaining packets of granular sodium bromide are needed to establish a bromine base.  I don't know how a new spa owner could reasonably be expected to know that since it doesn't say that anywhere on the bromine tablet container or the spa instructions and none of the pool and spa professionals I spoke to said anythjng about it, but my guess is pseudomonas developed because that bromine base was never established.  I imagine my bromine readings were at 1 or 0ppm during the week after I got the spa.  During that time, I went in the spa once a day for about 25 minutes.  My fiancee joined me twice and another friend once.

Reason for the long winded story: after returning from vacation, the bacterial smell is back, even though I gave it a good dichlor shock before leaving and upon return I found that pH=7.2 and Br=7ppm.

I scrubbed down the walls just above the waterline with bleach, but I'm still not excited about going back ito that tub.  Any ideas what's going on here and what course of action I should take?  Is the bacterial smell necessarilly an indicator that the decontamination process failed?  Could it be a less serious matter?  Did the pseudomonas get permanently reintroduced into the spa in the 12 hours between when I went in and saw the next morning that bromine had already dropped from 5 to 0?

Did I reintroduce pseudomonas into the tub?  A biologist and a nurse practitioner both had told me that after 8 days on antibiotics and with the rash fading quickly and no longer weeping, I would not reinfect the hot tub by going in it.  However, at about the same time, I stopped taking the antibiotic because it appeared the rash was gone and and I was only waiting for the skin to heal.  But a couple of days after I went back into the tub, which was also a couple of days after I stopped taking antibiotics, my symptoms came back, so I started taking antibiotics again.  So it's possible I reinfected the tub, or that the tub reinfected me, or maybe neither...maybe I never completely wiped it out before stopping antibiotics.

Owning a hot tub is less relaxing than I anticipated .

[Chas]

Every time a doctor put me on antibiotics, they said, "take them all, do not stop taking them even if the symptoms go away."



HTH

 

[Chas]

One thing I have told a few folks: while you are doing a cleansing, be sure you run the jets often, and run them ALL. By that I mean turn any diverter valves so water flows through all jets. And if your spa has a blower, run it several times per day. And if you have drain(s) be sure to let some water flow out of them while the chlorine is high. You are looking for any part of your tub where water may just sit. Those nooks can harbor the mold, and cause it to bounce right back. Water features are a great place for this to happen.

HTH

 

[chem geek]

Pseudomonas is a fairly common bacteria so even if you didn't introduce it yourself, it could still get into the spa.  The key is to kill it or at least make sure it cannot reproduce with abandon.  Chlorine or bromine will kill it, but if you let the level get to zero (or very close), then the bacteria can grow and once it forms biofilms then even normal chlorine or bromine levels won't kill it.  So it is VERY important to MAINTAIN a chlorine or bromine level in the spa.  MPS is NOT a disinfectant unless it is used in conjunction with silver ions as with the Nature2 system.

Many people woefully underestimate how much oxidizer/disinfectant it takes to handle their bather waste.  The bromine tabs can maintain a background level of bromine in the longer gaps in between soaks but they generally won't handle a higher bather load such as your using the spa every day.  20 minutes of soaking in a hot spa without an ozonator (does your spa have an ozonator?) would need a little more than 1 teaspoon of Dichlor or almost 2 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or a little more than 2 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste.  As you recognized, for bromine you needed to have a sodium bromide bank to start with, but if you used Dichlor then that at least adds chlorine even if you don't have a bromide bank.  The problem is primarily that you were not adding enough disinfectant regularly to keep up with the bather load and once you get behind and the levels get to zero, all hell breaks loose.

[Walter White]

thanks guys.  Chem Geek... yes, my spa has an ozonator.  Chas: the doc intentionally gave me a longer prescription than she expected I would need.  She only wanted me to use the entire prescription if my infection proved particularly stubborn and long-lasting.  It looks like I did stop taking the antibiotics too early, though.  Also, I did run all the jets and waterfalls during the decontamination.  One thing I didn't do was actually take the pipes apart, look inside them, and vaccuum the plumbing out.

A week after coming back home and noticing the recurrence of the bacterial smell above the waterline (and scrubbing it down with bleach), the smell has not returned.  Is a bacterial smell just above the waterline ever a minor issue, or does it strongly suggest the pseudomonas is back?

Also, does anybody know who can I take a water sample to to test for Pseudomonas?

[chem geek]

You can have bacterial biofilm form above the water line even in a properly chlorinated spa, it's just less frequent.  The area above the waterline is moist from water vapor, but doesn't get heavily chlorinated because it is not submerged in the water.  There are several ways of reducing this problem.  The easiest is to use a scum ball to remove floating organic contaminants so that they do not all stick to the spa walls and become food for bacteria.  Another approach is what you did which is to wipe the sides of the spa whenever they aren't squeaky clean (if you do this regularly, you can probably just use spa water for this and not need to use bleach).  However, with your spa properly chlorinated, you should have less problems.

[clover]

The first water test to the experienced hot tubber is sight and smell.  When you can smell the water, see a tinge of color, a haze or cloudy water something is wrong that requires your attention.  This is when you need to test the water.

How do you know your ozonator is working?  I am a strong proponent of ozone, and indications are it is not doing it's job.  Does you spa have an ozone icon that let's you know if it is working, or drawing electric?  Different spas operate their ozone systems differently.  it would help to know if you can determine IF the ozone is working.  Ozone is a sanitizer/oxidizer that should be working on the water without your attention if it is working properly.

Chlorine will certainly eradicate any bacteria within the tub, but then, so should the ozone.

[Walter White]

How do you know your ozonator is working?

I had the same question.  When my troubles started I brought in a spa maintenance pro to give me some pointers and I asked him whether it was working, and how I could tell if it was.  He said there's no way a person can tell if the ozone is working, but he nevertheless assured me that it was.  That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I've heard crazier ideas from some of the bro scientists of the pool and spa world.

I can say when I open up the panel and look inside the spa, the little indicator light on the blue ozone box is on.  Really that's the only direct evidence I've seen that it's working.  The spa control panel is very simple/minimal and I don't believe it has an "ozone is working" icon.  Do you have any suggestions for how to make sure the ozone is working?

[Walter White]

Many people woefully underestimate how much oxidizer/disinfectant it takes to handle their bather waste.  The bromine tabs can maintain a background level of bromine in the longer gaps in between soaks but they generally won't handle a higher bather load such as your using the spa every day.  20 minutes of soaking in a hot spa without an ozonator (does your spa have an ozonator?) would need a little more than 1 teaspoon of Dichlor or almost 2 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or a little more than 2 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste. 

These are very helpful, thankyou.  Do I need to increase these amounts if there were multiple people in the spa simultaneously?  How much should I use if I do have an ozonator?

[chem geek]

You should dose roughly proportionally to the number of bather-hours, so number of people in the spa times the length of time they are in the spa.  Though I know the rough guidelines for how much is needed when there is no ozonator, a functioning ozonator should reduce this, but how much depends on the strength of the ozonator.  What you should do is just add enough so that you still measure a disinfectant residual 24 hours later as well as just before your next soak if that's not the next day.  You don't ever want it getting to zero.

With no ozonator, the rule of thumb is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) tub requires 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces of 6% beach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS).  With an ozonator, it's about half these amounts, but depends on the ozonator.

[clover]

How do you know your ozonator is working?

I had the same question....the little indicator light on the blue ozone box is on....Do you have any suggestions for how to make sure the ozone is working?

You describe what may be a Dell CD Ozone MCD-50 with a green idicator light.  When the light is on it IS producing ozone.  There is a test for ozone which amounts to a glass vile that you clip the ends off and put in the ozone supply line.  If it is producing ozone, you will see the blue immediately begin to change to white.  The blue usually disappears within 30 seconds.  The speed of the change in color, indicates the volumn of ozone being supplied.

[Walter White]

Although I've been following chem geek's instructions religiously, I found two small thin sheets of semi-transparent white stuff in my spa:




The first sheet was maybe 2 inches by 2 inches and I noticed it floating in the spa.  I pulled it apart a little bit trying to figure out what it was.  It was semi-elastic, but eventually tore into the several pieces you see above.  I found the second sheet in the filter.

I was told pseudomonas can produce "white flaky stuff" that may end up floating in your spa and "white snotty stuff" in the filter.  About 25% of the folds in my spa filters show white buildup that looks like this:



That stuff could be what the pool supply store clerk I spoke to described as "white snotty pseudomonas" but "snotty" isn't the adjective I would use.  I thought it might also be chlor brite or bromine tab residual.  Last night my bromine level was getting toward the lower end (about 3) so I put a small handful of the powdered/crushed bromine at the bottom of my container of bromine tablets into the filter area.  Maybe it's just that?  On the other hand, I don't know what else the sheets of white film could be.

Any comments?

photo hosting sites

[chem geek]

If the white stuff is like tissue paper and falls apart fairly easily, then that's probably white water mold.

I doubt that the ozonator is really working unless the mold was stuck to spa surfaces and not getting circulated.

I think your spa got into such bad shape that simply getting back to using sufficient disinfectant is not enough.  You need to thoroughly decontaminate your spa.  That means using Spa System Flush as well as super-chlorinating to at least 50 ppm (some say 100 ppm) before doing a complete drain and then a refill.

This just shows how important it is to never let the disinfectant level get too low for too long.  Once biofilms or other pathogens get established, normal disinfectant levels won't get rid of them.

[Walter White]

thank you once again, chem geek.  The stuff is kind of like rubbery tissue paper.  It stretches a little and then pulls apart.  sounds like mold to me.

One last question.  You may remember I started this thread by describing the full decontamination I did after I got the rash:

following decontamination instructions I found on the web, I soaked my spa filters in 10% sodium hypochlorite for about 5 hours, used spa purge, drained my water the next morning(it was clear), spray and scrubbed all the walls and the underside of the spa cover with the 10% bleach solution, refilled the spa, balanced the pH, then added enough dichlor to raise Chlorine levels to 100ppm and ran jets for 1.5 hours.  Then I drained the water again, refilled it, balanced the pH, shocked the water with dichlor.

Is my next move to simply do the same thing again?  It seems to me something stronger may be called for in light of the relapse.  Like bringing in professionals who can take all the pipes apart until they find the home base of the mold.

[chem geek]

Mmmmm. Well, if you decontaminate again I'd use Spa System Flush instead of Spa Purge and I'd also use AquaFinesse Spa Clean.  Between the surfactants and enzymes in these products, they should dislodge whatever may be sticking to the pipes and expose it to the high chlorine levels to kill it off.  And yes, when using these products you want to run circulation and jets to have the products get to wherever water may be present.