Power requirements

[bodguy]

Good morning,
I have been lurking the boards for quite some time and researching the purchase of my 1st tub.

I had the forsight when building our new home to have a concrete tub pad poured and 220V run to it. I didn't ask for a specific amperage (hadn't started researching tubs yet) and the builder put in 30 amp service.  

Had I known better at the time I would have asked for 50 amp service, however now that the house is almost finished the only way to run 50 amp service is to run another line through the attic and down the side of the house through conduit, which I do not want to do, I really don't want to have conduit stuck to the side of my brand spankin new home.

Alot of the tubs I have been reasearching seem to have 50 amp, and even 60 amp requirements.  

I'm looking for a 6 person or larger tub, price not important. Am I going to have troubles finding a tub of that size that will run on 30 amp service?

Thank you in advance

[Chas]

You can run any 110 volt tub with the wiring you have. In the HotSpring spa line that would be:

Jetsetter (small)
Prodigy (also small)
Sovereign (only the EE model)

In the Tiger River line you could run:

Sumatran (small)
Bengal (medium)

These tubs are well-designed, and do a very credible job on 110. With the heat-recycling from the jet pump motor, there is very little cooling when the jets are running.

There is a little-know feature on the bigger HotSpring tubs: you can program the logic on the control board to shut down the heater when the jets come on - so you could run the spa on a 30 amp circuit. This is not in any of the books - but I have done it. Swap a jumper on the circuit board, an you have a 30 amp spa. You get the fast heating/reheating of a 220 volt 6000 watt heater, but the heat kicks out when you trigger the jets, just like on 110.  Unlike a 110, you can reheat at 9 or 10 degrees an hour once the jets go off. By doing this you can use your existing 30 amp 220 supply.

Otherwise - you could find an electrician who would be willing to snake the correct wiring down the inside of the wall - or another wall nearby (such as inside of a closet or utility area) and bury the conduit to get where you need. A good electrician should be able to do this - though they may have to cut an access whole in the interior wall to get past the normal fire blocking. This is the time to do this: you have all the new paint to do the touch-up.

On a new house - with the choices you expressed, I would get the power updated to 50 amp and go with one of the largest HotSpring tubs.

[Electro]

bodguy,

I think conduit is beautiful.  I'd install EMT or rigid on most surfaces, interior and exterior.  What could be nicer than seeing something as wonderful as conduit everywhere.

If you decide to install a bigger line, go with 60 amp service.  This is the largest allowed by the codes.  All of the biggest tubs use 60 amps to allow either no or lessened turning off of the heater.  Nevertheless, big tubs with 3 or more pumps will usually program to have the heater go off with more than 2 pumps working on their high level.

Electro

[Chas]

'Tro has a point, conduit can be beautiful.    

The largest HotSpring tubs are all 50 amp. They use a 4000 watt heater instead of a 6000 watt so you can run all systems at once. You really don't notice the difference in heat capacity, and being able to run all systems at once is nice.

If you do go to the trouble of running in a new 220 line, I would agree that putting in 60 amp would be wise. You will end up with a sub panel - most likely - and you can use that as a staring point for additional power for extras, such as outdoor lighting, music, fans, patio heaters, blenders, the rotisserie, etc.

[bodguy]

Thanx for the quick replies.  

I probably could have the 60 amp service run through the attic and into the wall where the tub is going to be located, the interior wall next to where the pad is, is actually a walk-in closet

Although, living on the Mississippi Gulf Coast the heat loss should be minimum when the tub is running, the average temp in the winter is around 50 degrees in the heart of winter, and you don't even want to know what it is in the summer (equater hot), I may actually want to cool the water LOL

[Chas]

Well see, now there ya' go! You can use that extra outlet for the ice machine...  

[Mendocino101]

Forgive me if I am missing something here...but why not simply pull the wire from you 30 amp line....and use the same conduit do a #6 or # 8 pull of new wire pop in the 50 amp breaker and away you go....

[bodguy]

The line was installed as the house was being built. I was told by the builder he could not pull a new line as the existing one is in the walls......now assuming it is indeed in conduit in the walls I suppose one could be pulled through depending on bends etc......would they have just run 220 wire through the walls without conduit?

[Brewman]

They would not be allowed to run this line thru your walls without conduit.
I think the suggestion to remove the 30 amp wiring, and replace it with 6 gauge copper is a good one.  
You could go with a 50 or 60 amp breaker with that wire.
If this is unworkable, and you don't want conduit running along the outside of your new house, consider that this conduit could be put underground if you want to .
Brewman

[Electro]

Brewman,

Reference: "They would not be allowed to run this line thru your walls without conduit."

In one fell swoop, you have negated much of the National Electrical Code Article 334, Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS, better known as Romex.

In fact, romex is routinely used throughout most of the U.S. inside walls of homes, without any conduit.  There are some exceptions, where the local jurisdiction thinks it knows more than the National Fire Protection Association's committees and code-making panels.  The NEC is the oldest and most used safety code in the world.  Perhaps the folks that rewrite it every 3 years know something about electrical safety.

Electro

[Mendocino101]

electro...

that is true...how ever does that also apply to a 220 hook up as well.....can you also run one with romax....I do not know the answer....just asking an honest question....

[Electro]

mendocino101,

Yes.  Romex may be used in homes for all standard voltages, including 120 and 240 volts.  Note that the voltage designations of 110 and 220 is about 60 years out of date.  Romex is listed for applications up to 300 volts.

There are protection requirements in the code for Romex, which frequently are not done well by some electricians.  For example, where nails or screws are likely to penetrate the Romex inside walls (as when the homeowner hammers in nails to hang pictures), it is required that 1/16 inch steel plate be placed to protect the Romex.  There are many such protection requirements.

Electro

[Brewman]

 What about the NEC requirement which requires all spa wiring to be in conduit from the service panel to the spa if the spa has a light?  In this application romex would not be allowed.  If the spa has no light, then the romex would be okay.  

If I recall, if the spa has a light, then the spa must be wired with an insulated ground wire.  Since romex cable does not have an insulated ground, it can't be used in this application.  

Also, wondering why the original electrician installed wiring in a conduit?

Brewman

[Gary]

There are a lot of spas oput there that can run either 30 or 50-amp service. This can be done form a simple jumper on the circuit board. If you run them 30-amp though you will loose heat when the jet pump(s) are on high speed.

Gary

[Electro]

Brewman,

I'd like to comment further on your remarks, which were:

Posted by: Brewman Posted on: Today at 7:51am
What about the NEC requirement which requires all spa wiring to be in conduit from the service panel to the spa if the spa has a light?  In this application romex would not be allowed.  If the spa has no light, then the romex would be okay.  

If I recall, if the spa has a light, then the spa must be wired with an insulated ground wire.  Since romex cable does not have an insulated ground, it can't be used in this application.  

Also, wondering why the original electrician installed wiring in a conduit?  

Brewman


I acknowledge your understanding and comments on the NEC.  My comment on Romex in homes was not intended to apply to the exterior, where some type of conductor insulation protection is required, usually conduit.  I assumed the average electrician would likely route Romex, at least to the point where the circuit conductors leave the premises going to an exterior spa.  Many would likely continue the Romex outside, hopefully now in conduit.  There have always been questions about whether Romex is approved for use in conduit or could be used, since this is not mentioned in approvals.  Unless there is an enormous heat load, this is not a substantive issue in practice.

The NEC requirement for conduit from the service panel to the spa, when there is a light, is found in Article 680.23(F), as referenced from 680.42(C) and 680.43(B)(2).  Actually the 2002 code article (which is different than the 1999 code) states the types of conduit that is permitted, when conduit is otherwise required, e.g. when routed outside or in a location in which the conductor insulation could be damaged.  In typical inside locations, conduit is not required when walls provide protection.

The 1999 code, per Article 680-25(d), as referenced by 680-40 and 680-41, did say that the equipment grounding conductor "shall be an insulated conductor and shall be installed with the feeder conductors in ... conduit."

There were changes in the 2002 code that allow for interpretation as indicated above (which the code panel found to be desirable, versus the intrepretation that conduit is always required).   Also, your second set of remarks seems to be based on another interpretation that the code panel did not agree with.  Hence, the 2002 code [Article 680.42(C)] was changed to indicate the wiring method is to contain an equipment grounding conductor "that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of  the wiring method ..."  This code language was specifically inserted to allow for the use of Romex.

Based on bodguy's posts, he indicated the builder said a new line could not be pulled, since the existing one is in the walls.  This implies to me that stapled Romex was used.  If conduit were used, there shouldn't have been a problem in pulling the larger wire, except that the conduit size may have been too small.

Thanks for your thoughtful insight.  It's too bad that these requirements have continued to keep changing every 3 years with the latest NEC.  It's no wonder that folks don't know what the latest code says.

The manufacturers have trouble with these changes also, since their NRTL listing is based on a specific code.  Thus, I found that the Sundance installation instructions for my new tub differ from the requirements of the 2002 code.  My Maxxus appears to have been approved under the 1996 NEC.  Many other tubs of all the various manufacturers were approved under codes dating back two decades.  This makes it impossible for an electrician to know what to do, without reading the specific installation instructions for each tub.  Officially, the electrician may not decide to install under the latest or a later code, even though many probably do so in practice.

Electro