Jacuzzi Premium versus Sundance

[Chris_H]

All,
     Sometimes I get really frustrated when people are discussing why Jacuzzi Premium is on par with Sundance.  Pool and spa dealers will agree that Jacuzzi Premium is not on par with Sundance.  Consumers however can not see the $1,000 to $2,000 dollar difference between the Sundance Optima and a Jacuzzi 385.  
The components are absolutely not the same, the plumbing and jets are absolutely not the same, and the filtration is absolutely not the same.  
The Jacuzzi Premium uses a stainless steel heating element.  This element is the same element used in the Sweetwater Spas brand.  Would anyone like to debate this fact because I will take one of my Sweetwater Spas heating elements to your Jacuzzi Premium element and they we can have a discussion.  Sundance has an unconditional warranty on their Titanium heating element; hence the warranty on the Sundance is also better than the Jacuzzi Premium.  How much is this type of element worth to you with the unconditional warranty?  Is it worth an extra $300 or $400 more especially with an unconditional warranty?
I truly believe the pumps on the Jacuzzi Premium and the Sundance are the same even if the pumps inside the Jacuzzi Premium have a sticker that says “Jacuzzi” on them.  This weekend I did not have an opportunity to remove the panel of my competitors cabinet, but I will this upcoming weekend.
     This however does not explain why when one puts the diverter on half way you can only feel a trickle of water coming out on the Jacuzzi 385 with the pump that runs the seat with the “PowerPro MX jets.”  The seat only has 3 of these jets, but this pump controls three or four (I believe it is four) of the seats in the J-385.  Why is it that when the diverter is on half way so all three or four seats get water action can you only feel a trickle of water coming from the “PowerPro MX” seat, as well as, the 3 other seats using this pump?  I would really like someone to explain how this is seriously not worth an extra $500 or $600 more dollars.  My only explanation is that the plumbing is extremely inefficient and ineffective in the Jacuzzi Premium or Jacuzzi Premium is using extremely inefficient jets.  Would someone like to debate me on this?  I believe this is what Wisoki has been talking about in his rants against Jacuzzi Premium.
     The filtration on the Sundance is much more effective than the Jacuzzi Premium.  There are two reasons this is the case.  Reason number one is the Sundance uses the “Micro-Clean” cartridge that is NSF certified.  Jacuzzi Premium does not use this.  No debate necessary, it is a fact.  
     Secondly, Sundance uses a weir plate that moves up and down (not side to side), this is going to trap debris and body oils and not allow them to be sent back into the spa when removing the filters when there is water in the spa.  The Jacuzzi Premium to remove the filters you must remove a plate to remove the filters.  Removing the plate will immediately allow some/most of the debris and oils to immediately go back into the spa when removing the filters because by removing this plate you are immediately opening the filters up to the rest of the spa.  The Sundance keeps the dirty stuff away from the rest of the spa.   I really don’t know how much this is worth to someone, but if it takes 20 or 30 minutes less a month to keep the Sundance spa clear and clean because now instead of cleaning the body oils all around the spa in the Jacuzzi Premium, I now only have to clean the skimmer area in the Sundance.  I know how much my time is worth, but how much is it worth to you?  Is this 20 or 30 minutes a month worth an extra $1,500 dollars more for the Sundance Optima?  I guess that is for the consumers to decide.
     I hope this opens up for a great debate, and I can’t wait for it.
Chris H.

[Wisoki]

10-4 good buddy. I dont think anybody is saying the plumbing, jets and filtration are the same, not me anyhow. Component wise though, open up your (any) Jacuzzi Premium Spa, then open up the controll box and look at the printed circuit board. On the left side just below center it plainly reads "Sundance spa controller." The top sides may look different (slightly) but function identically. The pumps, let me clarify my statements from before. Sundance has been useing Jacuzzi BROTHERS® pumps for quite some time. Pumps that are designed to work with the sundance spas. Take those same pumps and put them on a JPS spa, and you get the pathetic performance you were speaking about. Those pumps are designed to work with the type, and size jets in a Sundance spa. They are NOT equiped with the volume water flow the Jacuzzi Whirlpool Bath® pump were/are and therefore CANNOT operate the PowerPro MX (or whatever they changed the name to this time) jets without diverting all of the water to them.

[tony]

Excellent information Chris H and Wisoki.  I have had the oportunity to see both JP pumps and Sundance pumps.  They are identical.  They even sound the same.  That is how it caught my attention.  From what I understand, the pecking order is Sundance, Jacuzzi Premium and then Sweetwater.  The Sundance spas will have all the newest and best bells and whistles and any technology advances which will eventually migrate down to JP and Sweetwater (example - titantium heater, bearingless jets).  Sundance was the first spa to use the titantium heater and offer a no fault warranty.  Hot Springs followed suit as well as some others now, yet Hot Springs uses the SS heater on the more price conscious Tiger River spas like Sundance does.  Chris, I agree regarding the Sundance filters...it is very easy to care for the one filter rather than multiple and the micro clean lasts me four months.

I personally think that the Jacuzzi Premium spas are caught in a middle area.  They are moving toward the Sundance/Sweetwater engineering, but still retaining some of the Jacuzzi features.  The move seem to be gradual (maybe too gradual).  Only time will tell.

Sundance/Jacuzzi Premium has the opportunity to do something very special here, offer three different lines at different price values with the same quality and commitment.  As a Sundance spa owner, I hope they do it right.

[poolboy34]

I feel I must correct you on the heater info.  D-1 has been using a Laing fast-flo heater with a no-fault unconditional warranty for over 7 years now.  That same heater unit is now used by Watkins in thier caldera and Hot Springs line.  It is a Ankiloy heater.  Just an observation but, to me it seems like sundance is using the Jacuzzi premium line as a seperate enitity.  Much like Watkins does now with Hot Spring and caldera Spas.  Although it seems Watkins has been more successful with doing this.  maybe Sundance is marketing the Jacuzzi Premium line as their better line.  As in a "good, better, Best" philosophy.  Sweetwater is their "good" Line, Jacuzzi premium is their "better" line and Sundance is their "best Line".  Watkins does this with their Solana, Tiger River and Hot Spring lines.  Caldera does this too with the Highland, Paradise, Utopia and Aquatic Melodies series.  Dimension one does this as well with their @Home Hot Tub, Reflections, and bay Collection Lines.  It's basically a marketing strategy to hit all price points in the market.  Sundance might also still be trying to figure out what exactly it is they want to do with the Jacuzzi premium line.  Do they dress it up and make it on par with Sundance spas, or do they keep it where it is as a middle of the road priced value packed spa?  I agree with Wisoki though, when i went to our competitors booth at a recent home show i checked out their JPS spas, and the jet action was fairly weak compared to a caldera or D-1 Spa.  Now the Sundance Spas....those are on par with D-1 and Caldera for jetting action.  Sundance and D-1 have EXCELENT jet action, as I've had the opportunity to sit in both.  I haven't yet had a chance to wet test a caldera, as we have just started carrying them, and it's pool season, so the store is rockin........so I don't have time at the moment.  Just my 2 cents.

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 and caldera Dealer

[ndabunka]

Chris  - I agree that Sundance is the highest end version of the Jacuzzi brands spas. No debate there. I also agree that the jets are different. But in my J370, the power is "just fine thank you". However, the difference between Sundance jets and Jacuzzi Premium jets is FAR less than the next step down (Sweet Water) IMHO. The heater in the Jacuzzi is stainless but in this area that's not really an issue(I may change my mind about this in 5 years after the heater warranty runs out but for now a non-issue). The REAL difference is sometimes in the dealership. The Sundance guy here in Charlotte when I was shopping was TERRIBLE. More car salesman like than respectable. The Jacuzzi dealer on the other hand was EXTREMELY forthright with EVERYTHING. In my case, the price difference was NOT WORTH IT. The floor demo Cameo they wanted to unload was a "bottom line" price of $8,900. Then it changed to $8,200. It had no stereo system in it (he wanted another $1K for that). His bottom line price $9,200. I BOUGHT a Jacuzzi J370 WITH stereo for $6,500 for a price difference of $2,700. IMHO the Jacuzzi is a FAR better deal at those price differences. Of course being in sales myself I called personally to let the Sundance guy know that he had lost the deal and to communicate to him the reasons why so that he would actually have a chance when he went to speak to other buyers considering these two alternatives. His one and only response was... "If you will only call and cancel your Jacuzzi order I will let you have the Cameo for $7,100". I guess some salespeople JUST DON'T GET IT.  I'm certain that there are good Sundance dealers out there but that type of "salesmanship" appears to be almost common in the spa industry. IMHO, I'd rather have my local Jacuzzi dealer than the local Sundance dealer and would have actually considered paying MORE for the Jacuzzi if I had too...

[johnnythunders]

thats right ndabunker tell them.I hated the salesperson that tried to sell me a sundance too.But the Jacuzzi guy was a very nice no presure type person.He was very helpful not like the Sundance guy.At least we know our Jacuzzi's are within the top 5 spas on the market.Johnny Thunders

[Spatech_tuo]

Johnny,
I'm not sure we can make the leap to assume Jacuzzi dealers to be superior to Sundance dealers based on your individual feedback or Bunka's. Wisoki may say in his years as a Jacuzzi dealer that they're a step down from Sundance while other Jacuzzi dealers certainly will differ. Yourself and Bunka as Jacuzzi spa owners may think from your personal opinion that they're pretty much on par and therefore a better deal but others could say your experiences are a bit limited. In reality there is no conclusion you can make on this comparison other than to conclude that there are varying opinions.

[doodoo]

Well not to 'debunk' any theories out there (pun intended) but one of the principle reasons why we went with the Sundance optima was because of the dealer. The close runner up was the Hotspring dealer who was just as professional.  

An interesting point to both, they were sallaried and not on commission.   That may be a reason why they fared so well in customer service. All others we equated to Herb Tarlic the poorly dress salesman.

I hear ya'all 'bout this customer service thang' (just got back from Texas) but like anything else in life customer service is an art based on respect which you earn.  

Everything else around the quality of tubs is, and should be as Chris H pointed out and others support, the features that accompany the different manufacturers product lines. Sundance is simply a better product line, as is Hotsprings, etc... All others are poduct lines priced for a different market. IMHO.  

[johnnythunders]

I am just saying that Sundance is
Number 1
Hotsprings #2
Dimenision one #3
Beachcomber #4
Jacuzzi #5 0r #6
Its not the tops up its up there

[chippers]

I own a 2004 J-385..and I wet tested Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Artesian,Vita, Leisure Bay,and Hot springs several times each brand ..different models too. I also wet tested Tiger River. I wet tested the Vita first, and thought for sure this was what i was buying. All those jets, lights, waterfalls. It was like being in a waterpark for someone who wasn't in a hot tub for many years. Then I saw pics of the Jacuzzis from their catolog and loved the look of them... I said I have to go see them. On the way to the Jacuzzi dealer, there also was a Leisure Bay dealer (Rec Warehouse)...we (my girlfriend and I) stopped there first just to browse. Hopped into the Leisure Bay and said "Hmm..very much like the Vita..not quite as good though"...then he brought us over to the Calderas..looked at the outside of the tub and said to myself, he must be joking..this thing looks so cheap. that grey synthetic "wood look" cabinet..lol. Had our suits on, so we hopped in it anyway..wow..the seats were so comfortable, and the water power was fabulous. My girlfriend said "each seat fits like a glove'". We knew after staying in it for almost 90 minutes hopping from the Caldera to the Leisure Bay that the Vita and Leisure Bay were now out. So..finally we did get out and back on our way to see the Jacuzzi.. Got to the Jacuzzi dealer..the tub looked great J-370. Got in it and my girlfriend said "no way". You see, being new to the spa world, what I later came to find out was we were basing our opinions soley on the strength of the jets.. basically thinking whichever shoots out the water the hardest is the best...and ,well, that particular jacuzzi dealer mainly sold Barbeques..he had no idea how to use the diverters, jet adjustments, and air intakes. Forget Jacuzzi, Caldera was king. Needless to say, I loved trying out these hot tubs and went on to try all of the hot tub brands I mentioned earlier...almost 3 months of wet testing...I"m a batchelor..got plenty of time to do things like this. Since this thread is regarding Sundance-Jacuzzi , I'm only going to get into why i picked the J-385 Jacuzzi ..actually is was the J-380 at the time..over the Sundance Optima  and Cameo.  Price wasn't a concern. I knew I was going to spend between $7,500 and $9,000 for any hot tub I picked, and I wanted all the bells and whistles, not just hot water... I can get that sitting in my bathtub. I'll start with the most important thing first. The construction..after hopping over (not using the steps)the sides of  each unit,( I did this with all the tubs I tested) the Jacuzzi didn't squeek,budge, or give one iota..it was solid as a rock. I liked the way the shell overlapped onto the cabinet. The Sundance..while the fit and finish was fine... it had the same square boxy look as all the other tubs. I can tell a Jacuzzi from a football field away. It's that distinguished. The Jacuzzi J-385 holds a whopping 550 gallons..the Sundances a respectable 500 gallons . I live in south florida..I need an ABS bottom..Jacuzzi has it..Sundance nope, just a plastic sheet. I'm just getting started..I'll give you a half dozen  more differences later..post is getting a wee bit long..lol...chippers

[ndabunka]

I agree that the dealer can make all the difference in the world. I know I can get a Sundance with all the things my Jacuzzi has (Stereo, remote, even a sub, etc) so they both have that capacity. In the end it gets down to "Value for the dollars spent". IMHO the $2,700+ I saved by buying a J370 instead of a similarily equipmed Cameo was the knockout punch. Sure the jets in the Sundance are great (but not THOUSANDS greater). Sure, the heater is Titanium instead of Stainless steel (But not THOUSANDS of dollars better). Sure the filter is "different" in the Sundance (NO VALUE TO ME WHAT SO EVER). I'm glad to hear that there are good Sundance dealers out there. In fact, I never doubted it (I've even met one or two of these great guys). I'm also certain there are Jacuzzi scumbags out there as well (Luckily have not meet any of them... yet).

[johnnythunders]

I know Sundance is a better product then the Jacuzzi but by not that much.Different jets and I am sure the Jacuzzi jets are much Better then sweetwaters.And everyone loves to save $1500 or more.Where can yea go and get a Jacuzzi for around $6000 same price as the cheaper sweetwater.Hey if I want to spend $7000 -$8000 I would get the sundance.But for the price Jacuzzi is a bargin.Johnny thunders

[Electro]

Chris_H,    

My experience was different than others that have posted here.  I found that the Sundance Optima was less expensive than the Jacuzzi 385.  This happened because the Jacuzzi dealer needed a somewhat higher price than has typically been posted here, and the Sundance dealer gave a better price than most of those I've seen posted here.

Base prices were $8300 for the Jacuzzi 385 and $7700 for the Sundance Optima.

I felt this made the Sundance a much better buy.  Before I went in to check out the Sundance tubs, I had already decided how much more I was willing to pay for it.  I was quite pleased to have the dealer quote less.  Before buying, I checked another Sundance dealer whose prices were higher than the Jacuzzi, which seems more normal.

By the way, you did a great job explaining some of the features that make the Sundance better.  Everything you said is true.

I bought the Sundance Maxxus for a great deal.

Electro

[ndabunka]

Congratulations. Your dealer offered a good price on the Optima @ $7,700. If more dealers would do that, they would sell a lot more of them. The Maxxus is a VERY nice unit as well. Don't see that many Maxxus owners on these boards. Mind sharing with us the price you paid and the options you got?

[Electro]

ndabunka,

The Sundance Maxxus supposedly retailed at $13,549.
The base sales price, offered with no negotiation, was $8500, including the manufacturer's 2-fold cover, a cheap plastic dual step, startup chemicals, an aftermarket ozonator, and delivery and setup.

I improved the package with the following options, and the total price was $9984 plus tax:

   Item                         Retail            Discounted Price
6 Sundance Towels      $44x6               $33x6
SunZone Ozonator       $250                +$100 difference
All 4 Exercise and Rowing Packages  $375       $200
Drink Tray                     $40                       $30
Special Matching 48 in Step    $375        +$200 difference
3-fold cover                 $485                   +$250 difference
Covermate2 Under Mount  $250              $180
3 Extra Pleated Filters     $66x3                 $50x3
3 Extra MicroClean Filters  $20x3               $15x3
5 lb diChlor                        $40                   $30
Spa Bright & Clear Quart   $12                   $9            
Spa Defender Quart          $12                   $9
Spa Metal Gon Quart         $15                   $11
Spa Fast Gloss Quart        $15                   $11
Spa Up 2 lb                       $6                     $4
Spa Down 2 lb                  $10                   $7
Renew 2 lb                       $28                   $20
pH Up 2 lb                         $8                     $6
SunPurity (Nature2) Purifier $33                $24