High TA

[chaz]

I can't seem to get the right mix.  TA is 160 and if I try to bring it down PH goes with it. When I add PH increaser the TA goes back up.  Chlorine and everything is working fine, but I am worried about the TA being so high.  Is there a way to bring it down without messing up the PH or does it even matter that the TA is that high?  I have had the spa for a month now and keep fighting this.  I got the TA to 150 and PH to 7.4 then added a PH balancer that was suppose to keep the PH where I wanted it and tried to adjust the TA down to around 130 and thus the process started again.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Chaz

PS This is in no way stopping me from using it ever night.  If I can get this right I will be in complete heaven.

[Pooldevil]

Hi Chaz
I find that the best thing to do is concentrate mainly on the pH and as long as the TA is not too far out don't adjust it.
Here we have tapwater at pH of 6.8 and a TA of around 40 so when we set up a spa I just add a little pH + and over the next few weeks I tell the customer not to adjust the TA , just the pH .... sure enough the pH+ will bring the TA up to level.
After about 3 months the TA will reach 150 + and then its time to dump the water and get a fresh start !
We use EcoOne both at home and in our showroom and this seems to stabilize the pH quite well ....
Hope this helps .....

[chaz]

Pooldevil,

Thanks.  Now I know how to go about it when I get started, but the water is only a month old and is clear and looks good except for the TA.  Should I drain and start over or just let it ride since the rest is in line?

Chaz

[Shut_Down_Stranger]

TA is total alkalinity

Technically, total alkalinity is the amount of acid required to lower the pH of water to a preset value. Typically 4.0

Adding acid will generally lower the pH and decrease the alkalinity.

Increasing the alkalinity without significantly changing pH is obtained by adding sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate to the water.  

Adding sodium carbonate (soda ash) will increase your total alkalinity but not change your pH significantly.
Carbonate is slight basic and and is in equalibrium with the bicarbonate (a slight acid) depending on the pH.

The pH balancer is nothing but sodium bicarbonate/carbonate. I think that you added too much balancer.

You may want to partally drain and refill.  

[chaz]

Shut Down,

Unusual name?

Now I think I am more confused, but I do understand about draining the tub partially and refilling because my alkalinity was very low to start with so should bring it down to more normal level.

The science of all this is what worried me when I bought the tub.  Basically, with the exception of baking soda, are these other chemicals available readily to be used in spas?  Are there commen names that they are referred to as?  I know when I go to my local spa store I don't see soda ash on the shelf (I don't think).

I appreciate the help and am trying to learn this as fast as possible, but if the respnses are put into "newbie" terms also it would help with my education as I am getting a little lost :-/

By the way, I was told to add the whole bottle of balancer once I got the ph where I wanted it.  Guess this was not accurate advice.

Thanks for all the help.

Making progress,
Chaz  

[Lori]

Chaz,

Don't fret so much.  If you go into your local dealer and say "I need ph up, ph down, alk up, alk down, etc. they should be able to direct you to the right products.  That is what I did, anyway.  I took a sample of my water for a test and was told to raise ph and alk, told them I needed the chemicals to do that, and got them.

I think Soda Ash is pretty common, though!

Just a thought!  I've had my spa since September and still learning, but the biggest lesson I have learned is to go slow and relax.  It will work itself out in time!  (Thanks to Roger for that sage advice.)

Good luck!!!

[chaz]

Thanks Lori!

I will try to rmember that piece of wisdom.  It is difficult to follow being a type A personality, which is why I NEED the hottub and relaxation it provides.  I'll try to remember to breath too

I went home at lunch and got a sample and took it to my dealer, got exactly what I needed and the amounts and order of each.  We'll see how it goes tomorrow.  Have to wait for repairman to fix a leaky coupling first (and hopefully not drain off half the water) before I try it though.

Hey, this is just like owning my first car after all

[Shut_Down_Stranger]

Shut Down Stranger is a line from the Bruce Springsteen song "Racing in the Streets" - Darkness - 1978

I may be newbie for spas, but I would say that I know a bit about water chemistry and treatment chemicals... enough to earn a living and afford a spa at least.  

I know the chemicals by thier chemical names, they are mixed and sold under brand names, its as they say read the label and the truth will be known.  

By the way, sodium Bicarbonate is baking soda. Look at the box of Arm and Hammer.  

[Tman122]

Thanks for the kind works Lori

Yep Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) raises TA and PH both. Soda Ash (sodium carbonate) or borax contains some soda ash but not pure, will raise PH and just slightly on the ALK. Muratic Acid (used for cleaning cement and bricks) will lower both PH and ALK is available in your local hardware store or lumber yard but it needs to be handled carefully, premixed with water before adding it to your tub. Lemon Juice will also lower PH and TA but I feel like a fish stick when I use it!!

[Tman122]

Oh and forgot to mention PH is the most important because it is what determins the acidity of your water or lack there of, which is bad either way. But a stable ALK whether it be at 80 or 150 will help to stabalize your PH and that's the key. Getting a handle on your Alk can be very difficult but not a need to fret as long as your PH stays in the desired range. Because to low PH (high in acid) well no one wants to soak in an acid bath. Or to high (low in acid) will create scale.  And both are bad on your tub if left unchecked, but it won't happen over night or over the next week or so so be patient and make small adjustments it will come to you.

By the way this is Roger

[Pooldevil]

Sounds like Tman knows what he is talking about ....
Take his advice and you won't go far wrong !

[chaz]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

Tman, I especially enjoyed the fish stick analogy. LOL

[tony]

Hey Roger

Borax (20 mule team) is sodium tetraborate and supposedly works real well raising pH.  I've never tried it, but I wonder if someone out there has.  I have never had to raise pH without raising TA, so I always use spa up (sodium bicarb).

[Tman122]

I know Tony I have never had to use Borax either but I do have some sodium carbonate (soda ash) Just in case but it seems it was a mistake to purchase it because now I am dialed to 4 OZ's of baking soda in water that starts at 6.8-7.0 PH and 60-70 ALK this does the trick and it pretty much stays this way all through the life of the water except for some small baking soda additions through the span. I think the decrease in my PH and ALK over the life span of the water is from the build of cyanuric acid (byproduct of dichlor use) as you know my thoughts on this. But small additions of baking soda seems to be a clean way and resonably chemical free. After all don't eat sodium bicarbonate?

[tony]

This CYA has my interest peaked right now.  I've got my first year with a pool comming up so stabilizer is an issue along with what chlorine to use and what to shock with.

TDS vs CYA is a balancing act in a spa.  One thing for sure, fresh water cures all ills.