Sundance Maxxus vs. Artic Spas KodiakSE

[wesj53]

Good question and observation lagator. Some reasons for the bullets may include the fast growth pattern of Arctic. I  have heard that Arctic has been one of the fastest gorwing (if not THE fastest) spa mfg in the world. Secondly, they have a insulation design (Heatlock) that runs contrary to the traditional FF design. Some folks who sell FF products just don't want to admit that there may be an alternative method of producing spas which MAY be more efficient in terms of energy costs. Thirdly, Arctic has many unique features which competitors question the reliability (Forever Floor, Peak Ozone, reflex torsion hoses, titanium protected heaters, sealed Italian pumps). You will also hear that Arctic has only been around 12 years so they still have not "proven themselves".

I hope you are not referring to me as one of those Arctic owners who want to shove my opinion down other people's throats, but I'm not. Whe I began shopping for spas I did a lot of research, studied the various aspects of how they are made and formed my own conclusions. I do defend the brand when there is misinformation disemminated and I will stand up to dealers (which some don't like). I try to be fair in everything I write but sometimes the written word is misinterpreted and then discussions go "south". I also try and supply more information to fellow consumers than the standard line, "wet test to see if a tub is comfortable". There are lots of spas that are comfortable so IMO an educated consumer should look into how they are made as well. I hope that helps.

[drewstar]

These are both good spas. Wet Test. Don't make the primary decsion based on the insulation. (concerning these two tubs. Both have satisfied customers and good track records).

As far as Artic taking a few hits, maybe. But they are not the only one. It seems to run in cycles around here. Folks were ganging up on the Hotsprings crowd a while ago, Master has gotten beat on pretty bad, Bullfrog, Artesian, all of them.  Folks can get pretty emotional over these things,  but Artic has not gotten beat on any more (nor less) than any other brand.

Some of the negative attacks come from folks being put off by artics agressive sales claims. They seemed to have calmed down a bit in the past year, but for a while they were passing out some pretty potent kool aid.

Some of the other attacks came from the hotly debated Insualtion debate...which..eh. I aint got the energy today.

Anyhow, Wet test.  Aint no other way to make an intteligent, informed decsion.  

[bosco0633]

Tman122, I support the fact that arctic owners have been more sensitive on this board, however, how can you call your post subjective.  In fact I would argue that your post is just another jab, like you have been known to do.  You come out with a little sarcasim, a little over generalization, and then you disclaim arcitc with a quick jab.  

I would agree that there has been people that join the board and post about arctic in a bad way.  But those people come and go quickly as we all know.  


Dont make it look like arctic owners are buying into a "superior product" as you say and then add that they are only "medeocracy".  

Sundance makes a great tub, I would never discredit them.  Yeah they have stood the test of time, but they have been around longer.  What about all the posts last year from new sundance owners that went on and on about wireing issues with the lights and displays.  That was more than a few people with issues.  Do we just chalk that up to a bad year of product or bad batch???

Arcitc owners are not the only ones that support there product.  Just last week tileman posted "overlooked and underappreciated".  He talked about jacuzzi not getting the support.  He added how great the tub is built and posted pics of his jets opposed to other tub jets.  How come this post didnt go south like this one???  Why is it you only beef up like this over arctic posts??

I would suggest, that if you could stop hyjacking posts like this, then these subjects with arctic would not always get placed in beating a dead horse.  

I dont appreciate being placed in a pile as if I have some rare contagious disease.  I never brag about superiority and nither does any of the growing number of "REGULARS" on this board.  

No one ever said that you and others are not entitled to their own opinions, however, if you are going to be factual, try not to make false over generalizations and try not to be so ready to twist screws that do not need to be tightened.

You are a very knowledgeable person, I hold you as someone very knowledgeable in this industry and I respect your thoughts and opinions.  Just realize that we are all here to learn, some to have fun and chat with others and overall we are proud owners of a product that we all mutually enjoy, Hot tubs.  

Every industry has bad seeds, and arctic has had its fair share because they were the new kid on the block and breaking into an established industry.  They have had growing pains, however, I would argue to you that 12 years in the industry is not a fly by night company.  I would argue that they are a sound company, they are a growing company and they sell a product that goes against the industry norm.  

Lets leave it at that, so posts dont go south.  Please

[tony]

Can I ask a silly question?  Why do I get the feeling that there is a hate on for Arctic Spas?  :-?  I have only been reading these boards for the last month but Arctic seems to get more bullets than any other brand listed.  

The majority of Arctic owners seem down to earth about their brand ( example: Anne).  It is human nature that all brands will have certain owners who want to shove their opinion down other peoples throat and irritate the heck out of people.  

What have they done to get so many people angry?

I don't think there is a hate for Arctic spas, just some Arctic sales persons who spout false statements about Arctic's thermopane system being more efficient and scareing buyers regarding repairing leaks in full foam spas.  And its not just a few, but a long history of these tactics.  I personally feel that Actic makes a fine spa.  I don't like thermopane because it relies on the cabinet remaining a sealed unit which I don't think it can for the long run.  I happen to feel that the most efficient way to heat your water is with a heater.  Just my opinion and that only counts when I'm spending my money.  I've seen Arctic spas up close.  I don't really like everything just kind of hanging inside the cabinet.  I feel more secure with the solid feel of a full foam spa.

Does thermopane work?  I believe it does.
Does it work as well as full foam?  I believe it does when done right.
Does it work better than full foam?  I don't believe it does.

But its only an opinion...

[anne]

Whats funny is, and it has been a while now so this is all kind of moot, but, Arctic owners call it being attached when they make some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them.

Next thing you know those who claimed the BS are the ones being called attachers, funny how that works. As an Arctic owner you are allowed your opinion of there fine product, but us, anyone else is not allowed our opinion of there mediocracy? Huh?

Sigh. In a way I almost don't want to post anything, since I may just sound defensive, but when I learn to keep my mouth shut, I just wont be me. I agree with a lot of what Wes and Bosco said, and it doesnt need to be repeated. However...

I have been frequenting this board for about 10 months. When I first arrived, I definitely picked up on the "vibe" about Arctic being the ugly stepsister of the spa world. I was not here previous to 10 months ago to experience some of the bad sales tactics that have been discussed, but I do trust that it happened, as I trust those who recount it. (And I read some archives, and got a little "cool aid" from my dealer, but he was king of a clown). In the last 10 months, I have interacted indirectly with a number of different people from Arctic, and I think that the sales games have toned down, as I have been nothing but impressed with these people. I would say that Arctic as a company probably made some marketing mistakes, but I hope that is in the past.  So I would challenge you, at least over the last 10 months, to give an example of "some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them" on this forum. I just dont think it has happened.

[Tman122]

Tman122, I support the fact that arctic owners have been more sensitive on this board, however, how can you call your post subjective.  In fact I would argue that your post is just another jab, like you have been known to do.  You come out with a little sarcasim, a little over generalization, and then you disclaim arcitc with a quick jab.  

Here we go again Bosco. Your opinion of Arctic can't be any more relavent than mine. This is an open forum, and we are all allowed our opinion. As an Arctic owner I expect you to be insulted, but if being insulted by my opinion gets me chastised then so be it. But maybe a public forum with other peoples available opinions is not where you should be hanging out because there, believe it or not, may be several thousand people in this world who do not believe Arctic is anything more than "mediocre"  And just maybe my experience lends some credibility to my assesment.

Guess what, I think Hot Spring is nothing more than "mediocre"

To whoever mentioned why Arctic turns so many heads, now you know. Its because when someone states there opinion as nothing more than "mediocre" The Arctic crowd jumps all over us. And as long as that continues Arctic will continue to "turn heads" Arctic owners heads anyway.

Good question and observation lagator. Some reasons for the bullets may include the fast growth pattern of Arctic. I  have heard that Arctic has been one of the fastest gorwing (if not THE fastest) spa mfg in the world. Secondly, they have a insulation design (Heatlock) that runs contrary to the traditional FF design. Some folks who sell FF products just don't want to admit that there may be an alternative method of producing spas which MAY be more efficient in terms of energy costs. Thirdly, Arctic has many unique features which competitors question the reliability (Forever Floor, Peak Ozone, reflex torsion hoses, titanium protected heaters, sealed Italian pumps). You will also hear that Arctic has only been around 12 years so they still have not "proven themselves".
.

I don't think it's any of those things in particular that you mementioned wes. I think you have to put them all together except the fastest growing thing and call it marketing then you have it.

So I would challenge you, at least over the last 10 months, to give an example of "some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them" on this forum. I just dont think it has happened.

The Arctic sales crowd has no dout improved there tactics and it all relates to there communication officers hard work and dilegence monitoring this forum and every other forum, Tom is a great guy. However Anne I challange any Arctic owner to admit here that, they purchased believing there tub was nothing more than as good as several other brands. Of course they all think they are superior. Ask wes he will tell you why and even if experience here tells him different it will not matter to him.

And we here are a tiny tiny fraction of the tub owners out there, most of them could care less and there tubs, no matter what the brand, are just as good and last just as long. But try and get an Arctic owner to realize it. Although I am sure there are those Arctic owners who don't post or visit these forums that say. "Arctic Smarctic who cares it's just a box of hot water"

Sigh........I will never be understood. I don't even bash a product and I get accused of throwing in a stab at it. There are a couple things I don't like about the Arctic design and all of a sudden I am some kind of evil Arctic basher. There are things I don't like about alot of brands and yet I don't get bashed for pointing them out. I get accused of bashing a brand even though I am allowed my opinion of mediocracy and for some reason I get jumped all over by none other than the very crowd that can't understand why they are not getting the respect they think they deserve.

A couple simple questions for you Arctic owners I need to do a consensus for the rest of the board. How many years have you all owned your Arctic.? Is this your second Arctic? If so how long did your first one last?

I have only serviced one in the last 5 years because there isn't any dealers around me. I have been to a couple dealers and taken an entire unit apart to look under the hood.

Roger

[bosco0633]

Tman,  tell me where I jumped in all over you as you put it.  I am not one of those supporters as you say, I believe in the same principles as you and others.  I feel that your mouth gets the better of you from time to time unfortunately.  

If you truely feel that your posts about this subject are not tounge and ckeek, then I owe you an apology.  I feel that the sarcasim that you speak, really makes "Us People"  feel like outcasts.  Call the tub medeocre, I could care less, but do it in a tackful way.

Let me make it very clear to you, I dont care about TP vs. FF.  I dont care if I bought a tub from shady sales guys like you just cant seem to let go.  I dont care about people calling Arctic medeocre or below average.  

If I understand you correctly, we arctic owners are constantly going on about superiority.  Show me where friend.  Anne asked you and you avoided it, so tell me where?

You will never be understood?? your opinions are respected by many, however, when you treat people like a minority group then you will never be understood.  You claims are unsuported and not factual, and you mislead people by your cocky redorek.  

If you got beefs with Arctic, Hotsprings and any other tub, good, keep up the good fight.  Let me know how that is working for you.  But please Tman, stop talking so much crap about arctic, I paid alot of cash for my tub and dont feel that I constantly need to be chastised about some bad sales strategy.

I see a trend with you.  You come out with loud bold statements and when you get called to task on it, you just play the victim.  What did I do, why are you picking on me, everyone else is so sensitive.  Deny all you want, anyone can read in your writings and in the past writings just how this is.  Every time Tman.  

I even post you a compliment but you are so concerned about continuing the fight, that you overlook it.  I would let it go, but not until you can appreciate "our" side a little more.  You get so angry when others dont see your point.  

[bosco0633]

I forgot, Your consensus.  I think in unfair and will be impartial.  You know as well as I do, that this forum is viewed primarily by people in the market to buy and newer owners.  As time passes, people drop off.  So most people will say to you that they have not owned there tub that long.  Also the second part of you post is to see if this is first and second to discredit the amount of time arctic has been around.  

So I would say that your point must be overlooked.  Why dont you call Arctic and find out how many tubs have been sold.  Break it down to every year if you like.  Ask how many tubs have been returned.

Why dont you ask board members, how many have purchased an arctic and decided that it was not a good tub and returned it or traded in for something else.  That would support your consensus more.  But again, you dont care about this, your just trying to prove your point that is old school and negative.  Let go of the past, move forward have fun.  

Again, to avoid your defensive reply, I could care less that you view arctic as mediocre.  I disagree with the way you present it.  One last point, you posted that we arctic owners believe our tubs are superior.  Well fella, I am here to say like I have always that I dont think that.  I dont think that any one brand is superior.  I dont fall into the belief that my tub heats any better than any other tub, I dont believe my product or design is any better than any other.  

I do believe that I bought a great item, one that competes with several top brands.  But I never bought this tub thinking that I was buying the rolls royce of hot tubs.  I liked the dealer, the seating configurement, I enjoyed the wet test and the overall look.  Not to mention that the dealer is 1 km away form my house.

So again, your point is over generalized and unfactual.  So I call you to task again.

Sorry to be this way with you, I really am.  I just dont think you see the point that I am not going at you for your statements and opinions, rather they way you present them.  separate the two, and I think you will realize that we are arguing the same points really!!  

Waiting in anticipation!!!!

[Tman122]

[Sundance and Arctic make fine products. See what dealer you are most comfortable with and which tub you are most comfortable sitting in. They will both run about the same per month to operate, and Sundance has a proven track record for longevity and customer support. I also think Arctic may last a while but it hasn't been around long enough in it's current design to know.

Wait a minute now!! With a post like this, I got attacked by you. I think the one who has let there mouth get them in trouble is you!!

I stand by my statement and can repeat it if you like because maybe you didn't understand it the first time!! But it's above if you'd like to look.

[Tman122]

[Sundance and Arctic make fine products. See what dealer you are most comfortable with and which tub you are most comfortable sitting in. They will both run about the same per month to operate, and Sundance has a proven track record for longevity and customer support. I also think Arctic may last a while but it hasn't been around long enough in it's current design to know.

Wait a minute now!! With a post like this, I got attacked by you. I think the one who has let there mouth get them in trouble is you!!

I stand by my statement and can repeat it if you like because maybe you didn't understand it the first time!! But it's above if you'd like to look.

My intention was not a jab and it's to bad you saw it that way.

[wesj53]

Geez, I thought I sometimes get long with my posts bosco! Obviously, you and I are in agreement on most, if not all that you said. Being newer here, I didn't know that Tman was Roger. He and I have had a few disagreements but I trust that most have been done with respect for each other. Guys, this stuff is really not that important in the whole scheme of life. Think about our soldiers overseas fighting the dreaded and evil terrorists trying to keep us safe and it puts everything in perspective. Think about where you're going to spend eternity after your death and that really puts hot tobs in a low priority position. But enough of that!

Roger, I sincerely think (as you and I have agreed) that written posts many times get misinterpreted. I honestly have never "boasted" about Arctic superiority by slamming the competition. I have given credit, for example, to HS, Sundance, and Artesian for their innovations, and have many times offered glowing endorsements of non-Arctic products that I have wet tested. But as hard as it is for a lot of industry types to admit, Arctic has been an innovator with a lot of new good ideas which I believe are those engineering achievements that we owners try and educate our fellow consumers. (I don't believe I have EVER read any dealer on these sites that have credited Arctic without some sort of prodding). Personally, I find some other mfgs designs to be superior to some of those of Arctic, and I will readily admit that until I use my Tundra for a full year, the jury is still out as to whether this unit will serve the purpose that I hoped it would do. And I have openly informed readers of this site (and Whats the best) that I will honestly report things like energy usage, seating comfort factor, jet positioning, etc.

I was not around when the supposed aggressive marketing of Arctic personnel was thought to be over the top. But as a sales guy, you had better be more aggressive than less if you ever want to selll anything (especially if you're the new kid on the block). So why live in the past? Let's all move on, respect each other and the products we have purchased. That doesn't mean we can't ask pointed questions of each other's brands since that is how we all learn more. But to bash without fact is not warranted IMO.

Now you 2 guys kiss and make up! UH no, forget that. I mean shake hands!!!!

[Tman122]

Wes I signed my name so you would know who I was.

And your right.

[anne]

 However Anne I challange any Arctic owner to admit here that, they purchased believing there tub was nothing more than as good as several other brands. Of course they all think they are superior.

And we here are a tiny tiny fraction of the tub owners out there, most of them could care less and there tubs, no matter what the brand, are just as good and last just as long. But try and get an Arctic owner to realize it. Although I am sure there are those Arctic owners who don't post or visit these forums that say. "Arctic Smarctic who cares it's just a box of hot water"

You are joking right? Do you really honestly think you can generalize a statement like that about people who own a particular brand of tub??? Your opinions become less valid in my eyes if you regard me/us that way so flippantly. I will FREELY say that I do not think Arctic is superior. I think if you searched EVERY comment I have ever made here about Arctic, you'd see that I'm super happy with my tub, but I'd NEVER claim it is the best. Wes was very forceful in saying that his was the best for HIM, but I dont think he has ever tried to say that Arctic is the only good tub out there.

A couple simple questions for you Arctic owners I need to do a consensus for the rest of the board. How many years have you all owned your Arctic.? Is this your second Arctic? If so how long did your first one last?

I have only serviced one in the last 5 years because there isn't any dealers around me. I have been to a couple dealers and taken an entire unit apart to look under the hood.

This is my first Arctic tub. I have had it 8 months. It is my first tub period. WTF does it matter? I guess you are trying to show that none of us have been around tubs long enough to have an opinion???

How on earth did you get so jaded??

[hottubdan]

This has been really helpful for someone trying to choose between Arctic and Sundance.

 

[Tman122]

Anne part of any manufacturers grading in my eyes is having a long standing reputation for reliability and meeting there custumers and service peoples needs. Many, many companys have proved it over the years. In my book Arctic hasn't yet. Will they? I do not know, can I speculate, yes, they seem to be run by some top notch people so I would say yes. Many companys have come, made a big statement, and then gone. I dout this will happen to them and we will find out. It is one of the things that have kept them from the top of my list. My list may not matter to you or anyone, as it shouldn't because it's mine. So just as you and many others have praised there brand, I to will tout my brand/s. This board is for consumers looking for information, unbiased information. I try and give that.