Questions about Arctic Spas

[spaman--]

 Water boils at 212F (a little less in Denver because of the altitude).  To paraphrase the witches in Macbeth:  "Double, double toil and trouble, hot tub boil and potion bubble..."  

The Alberta Research Council's Thermal Performance Test of Spas http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/performance/Thermal%20Performance%20Test%20of%20Spas.pdf included data on equipment enclosure temperatures (Fig. 2 p. 4).  For an average ambient temperature of 19C and a constant water temperature of 40C, the EETs ranged from about 23C to about 42C (all spas). In other words, after a continuous run of 96 hours, at no time did the equipment temperature of any spa exceed 110F.

Certainly at higher ambient temperatures the EET will rise, which is why we offer some warm-weather solutions.

19c is 66.2f we are talking about 100f to 105f ambient, also the test you describe only has the water temp @73f water is a natural coolant.

In regards to the summer kit you offer, that was my whole point, the customer need to ask about that before the sale, this way they know they have extra costs to incur.

A real test would be with the westerly sun bearing down on the cabinet @ 8000 ft. elevation for an entire afternoon @102f. With water temp @102f.
Let me know how that goes.

In the winter when temps drop below freezing, in order for your theory of insulation to operate properly, the cabinet temp has to maintain above the temp of the water in the tub. Is this what happens 24/7?

[Tom]

19c is 66.2f we are talking about 100f to 105f ambient, try that for 96 hours.

Yow, that IS hot.  I hope it cools down at night?

[spaman--]

Yow, that IS hot.  I hope it cools down at night?

I threw that out there because it is as rediculous as the test you are showing at temps. of 66.2F.

[Tom]

I threw that out there because it is as rediculous as the test you are showing at temps. of 63F.

I am not "throwing things out there"; I am reporting facts.  Can't see why you'd say it is ridiculous.  Doesn't the CEC test run at an ambient of 68F or so?
 
We did another series of tests at -12C (10F).  To us, testing at those temperatures makes a great deal of sense, as they represent typical temperatures in our market area.    According to the National Climatic Data Center website, the  mean annual ambient in the US is around 55F (13C) while that for Canada is 7C (45F).   The ARC testing seems well in within range for both countries.

[spaman--]

I am not "throwing things out there"; I am reporting facts.  Can't see why you'd say it is ridiculous.  Doesn't the CEC test run at an ambient of 68F or so?
 
We did another series of tests at -12C (10F).  To us, testing at those temperatures makes a great deal of sense, as they represent typical temperatures in our market area.    According to the National Climatic Data Center website, the  mean annual ambient in the US is around 55F (13C) while that for Canada is 7C (45F).   The ARC testing seems well in within range for both countries.

Funny how you are showing tests based on national averages, since the tub is sold primarily touting its performance in climates that range from 105F and down to -30F, I would find it fitting to test in the extremes that the sales pitch presents. Once more if the temperature inside the cabinet drops below that of the water in the tub, the insulation is broken and the tub is losing temp.One more time, if the tub water is 104 and the cabinet temp drops to 100, the temp of the tub is going to reduce. Your test also shows a water temp of the 70's F, This is easy in any spa! The higher you set the temp of the water in an Arctic the harder it would seem to heat the tub without losing heat.

Since I live in a climate above 8000ft elevation, sometimes weeks go by and we do not see o Degrees F, what will the temp of the inside of that cabinet be?

In the summer when the sun hits and it is 103 outside and the sun is beating down, what will the inside of that cabinet be?

I do agree with the fact that in a power outage the equipment area is protected longer.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I would think that if Arctics control systems and pumps were "cooking" up they would change it because the warranty replacements would be a killer. On the other side, if the tub was costing people a fortune to run in the winter you would see the complaints on the forum.

We have owned both a full foam (Barefoot) and a few dead air tubs. (Clearwaters) There was no noticable difference in our electric when we switched from each. We have never had issues with dead air tubs, at least in this area, going through more compnents due to the heat in the cabinet....but we are

BADH....once again.

Purchase a quality tub with proven background from a quality dealer with proven customer service and you should be fine....

[spaman--]

It is a simple question.

[Tom]

It is a simple question.

I don't have the answer - I've never seen temperatures like that in my life. Ugh.  Don't ever want to.

This overheating thing is a common brand bash.  I used to have the temperature specs for the motors and things.  Maybe an Arctic owner or dealer in the area can tell us.  But for fairness, the answer should be given for other brands, too.

Tests with the Arctic Chiller, a little air conditioner we can add to keep things cool, have seen equipment compartment temps down to 3C (again, at ambient 20C, under controlled conditions with our electrical engineer keeping close watch on overdriven units.  Don't try this at home!)

... since the tub is sold primarily touting its performance in climates that range from 105F and down to -30F

Is it really?  I've written a lot of the ad copy, so you'd think I'd know about that 105F part.  Maybe that's from the Arctic Chiller.   I'll have to go see what Marketing is up to.   Certainly the -30 is fine.

Spaman, if you want to join me over in the Dead Horse Saloon, I'll buy you a drink and we can discuss the thermodynamics of a properly built perimeter-insulation spa.  But if it's 105F, please turn on the AC before I get there.

[spaman--]

O.K so just agree or disagree that the cabinet temp must be at or above the water in the tub in order to be effective. We can start there.

Pueblo Colorado if you check the almanac 105f down below -30F.

My home town Salmon Idaho 105F down below -30F

this whole region is the same.

It is a valid question.

[spaman--]

I would think that if Arctics control systems and pumps were "cooking" up they would change it because the warranty replacements would be a killer. On the other side, if the tub was costing people a fortune to run in the winter you would see the complaints on the forum.

We have owned both a full foam (Barefoot) and a few dead air tubs. (Clearwaters) There was no noticable difference in our electric when we switched from each. We have never had issues with dead air tubs, at least in this area, going through more compnents due to the heat in the cabinet....but we are

BADH....once again.

Purchase a quality tub with proven background from a quality dealer with proven customer service and you should be fine....

HMMM Spa cabinet chiller would give evidence otherwise.

[Tom]

O.K so just agree or disagree that the cabinet temp must be at or above the water in the tub in order to be effective. We can start there.

If pointing out that water boils at 212F doesn't show your 250F figure to be in error, I'd rather start at another spot.   You've heard of the greenhouse effect?   Check this out:  http://www.randomuseless.info/318ti/temperature/temperature.html.  Now, at an ambient temperature approaching 100F in open sun--the very conditions you posited--  those cars did not exceed 195F interior temperature (extrapolating the curve) under greenhouse conditions.  Therefore, I put it to you that the interior temperature of an insulated cedar cabinet cannot exceed that temperature and further that it will not even approach that temperature.  Nor will the motors run under those conditions.
  

It is a valid question.

It is a dead horse, but can we play again next week?  I gotta get back to work.

[spaman--]

We are not talking about cars we are talking about a hot tub that generates and holds heat in the summer and a hot tub in the that does not insulate well because the cabint temp. drops below the temp of the water in the tub. I guess when you are wrong it is a dead horse and you boys have danced around the question for 4 pages now.


So if the air temp in the cabinet drops below the temp of the water, the air cannot insulate the tub, it becomes a sponge and uses up the heat in the tub to heat the cooler cavity.


So now I will let it die until one of you boys dig it up again, I have let it go 3 times and one of you always digs it up.

[Water Boy]

Oh sawman, if you only knew as much as you think you do... keep on flapping those lips buddy!!

[stuart]

OK,
For the most part I've stayed out of this fray other than my little smiley face I put up as a joke but.... Now I have jump in. Let's forgo the insults and jabs that seem to always come up when we bring up this brand and try some logic.

For the Arctic boys I have to say that your myopic view of what your spa is or isn't can be considered admirable unless your on a side that deals with just about any type of insulation, where you have choices and can offer those choices to your customers with more just a good story.

I'm not sure I agree with how hot your cabinet gets however, if you talk with any manufacture of the chips, transformers, electronics and even motors they say that optimal operating range for those components is between 0 and 100 degrees. That doesn't mean that they can't operate outside of those temps but it's harder on them if they do long term. If you don't believe this than unplug the fan on your computer and see how long it lasts you. In most cases a thermopane cabinet can and will get hotter than that and if it doesn’t then the whole pitch has no merit.

The other issue is that in order for that type of system to be really effective you need to completely seal the cabinet and that doesn't happen.

In that type of system you should not preach that you "recapture and reheat" the spa with the cabinet heat but rather "Maintain" the heat (I’m not claiming you do it either way just making a general statement of how it should be). In order to do this effectively you need to regulate the filter cycles and pump run times a bit better than most spas and work at keeping the temp as even and constant as possible in the cabinet.

I personally do believe that spas with a thermopane type insulation are harder on the components over time than a spa that vents it off and I would challenge "What I think I know" with anyone on this board. I sell or service as many of both types of insulation everyday and have for around 20 years. I started in this industry selling LA and Morgan telling the thermopane story.

To add to this I personally have found that the plumbing covered in insulation remains more pliable than plumbing exposed to heat and open air and the jet seals and jets at the shell connection point don't get brittle as fast.

If you don't believe this than I would really have to challenge how much service you've done on spas that have been in the field longer than 5 years.

Having said all of this do I believe that it will make a huge difference to the customer?

No not really considering that most customers don't own that same spa for longer than 6 years. My concern here is that it's being sold all over the country as having the same lifespan with either method of insulation and that simply isn't true.

I also resent that this was put in “beating a dead horse” because it’s a great debate topic and customers could learn a lot from it. I do understand that with the level childish insults that it was escalating to that Bill had to move it.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Clearwaters separate the control system and ozone in its own little box that is not in the dead air space are, only the pumps are. The isulation goes around the backside of the box. Is Arctics control system separated in that way also.

What is the R-value of the foam that is used in a full foam cabinet? As the foam heats up to the temp of the tub and is drawn to the outside of the cabinet, insnt it transfered to the cabinet then to the outside or is there a layer of foil on the cabinet in the full foam tubs to transfer the heat back in? I know those foam coffee cups get hot unless they are wrapped.

Also, on the issue of the plumbing becoming weak. Doesn't the curing of the foam crate heat, a lot of heat tha can degrade the plumbing and glue joints? Doesn't the foam hold water? This causes issues over time or if the tub happens to leak, how do you dry the foam out?

We have also run into many more bees and rodents in full foam tubs and rodents raise havoc if they decide to start chewing.

As I said, i am not trying to be a pain, just trying to learn more. We looked long and hard to choose a tub line to carry and the insulation played a big role due to being in the North East, as did the ease of service so customers were not spending tons of dough to repair tubs and so we did not freeze in the middle of winter trying to fix a leak in the field. I guess each style has its pros and cons, it seems to come down to a personal preferance.

Don't get me wrong, I only beleive in quality built dead air space tubs. Most of them are not worth a pee hole in a snowbank. Our entry level tubs are a dead air space (Great Lakes) that I would never put up agaist a full foam tub, Arctic tub or Clearwater for effciency. Its a price point thing, pay less....get less.

Thanks in advance for mature answeres/comments to my questions.

We have been is the service aspect of spas for over 5 years, we see glue/brittle plumbing failures in dead air and full foam tubs, not one more than the other, we like the decremeted clips that many companies are going to for much of the plumbing.

Not trying to stir up more, curious.....