full foam vs thermopannels

[Tom]

I was recently in a dealer who carried only full foam tubs and he was saying that the cheaper ones are thermopannel and the LIPA (Long Island Power Authority)  has tested the full foam and showed they are very very energy efficient.  I thought the thermopannel were effficent too until he told me he raw hard data.

Whee!  Arctic dealers must love this kind of argument!

However, the part about "raw hard data" really caught my attention.  I want it, I want it!   Get that dealer to provide you the data, in print or via a web site. Share it with us. Data (and details of how the data was obtained so its validity can be determined) is the best starting point for a discussion.  

Meanwhile, for the only independently obtained comparative data (comparing different brands) I've seen in five years on the job, go to http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/.   This is the only test I've seen where the independent lab conducting the test is identified (others just say "an independent research organization" and won't even respond to polite emails asking 'who did your study'  Though maybe I'd get a reply if my email didn't go out over an Arctic Spas logo 8-))

For discussion of the weaknesses of both these studies, and my defense of them, hunt through the "Beating a Dead Horse" forum.  A search for "ARC Study" or "Arctic Study" will probably turn up more information.  

Meanwhile, the Canadian Office of Energy Efficiency continues to move towards developing Canadian test standards (you know, Canada, where the mean annual temperature averages 7C/45F and winter temps are somewhat colder?)

Please shift the thread to BADH.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I found the raw data interesting to since I have dtat from Clearwater showing that good thermopane is better insulating than full foam.

I think many others have hit the nail on the head, a quality tub, with quality insulation and cover are all going to be very close on how well they insulate.

As far as being more quiet when full foamed, my tub is very quiet with thermopane. Then again the thermopane is 2 inches thick and surrounds all 5 sides of the tub, again, quality plays an important role.

Hard facts that would impress me are those from previous customers that have actuall electric bills to show. Ask other owners of the brands you are looking at...

[Chubby Johnson]

I used to own an Emerald (a TP tub). One thing I know for an absolute fact is that I will never own a thermopane tub ever again.

Reason why?  My own "raw data" in the form of a sky high electric bill. The Emerald more than doubled my electric bill.

Keep in mind that I live in Michigan.  My wife and I were the only ones who used it so the cover was on most of the time.

I bought the tub new and ordered it with as much insulation as I could plus Reflectix. When the electric bills started rolling in I went to Home Depot and bought a box of Husky garbage bags and faceless fiberglass insulation. I filled the bags with the insulation and lined the interior with them. Royal Spas uses this same method except theirs hangs neatly inside.

I prayed to the hot tub gods for lower electric bills but they ignored my pleas. The DIY insulation did nothing for my energy costs.  I sold that Emerald and we don't miss it one bit.

Now the only hot tub I will buy is a full foam. I will be looking for one with a good base. I won't settle for one that is "sealed" with just a poly sheet. I think that is just a way for a manufacturer to cheap out.

I can see a Jacuzzi 345 in my future but no Colemans or Arctic or Royal or Spa Crest. No thermopane ever again.

[Water Boy]

I used to own an Emerald (a TP tub). One thing I know for an absolute fact is that I will never own a thermopane tub ever again.

Reason why?  My own "raw data" in the form of a sky high electric bill. The Emerald more than doubled my electric bill.

Keep in mind that I live in Michigan.  My wife and I were the only ones who used it so the cover was on most of the time.

I bought the tub new and ordered it with as much insulation as I could plus Reflectix. When the electric bills started rolling in I went to Home Depot and bought a box of Husky garbage bags and faceless fiberglass insulation. I filled the bags with the insulation and lined the interior with them. Royal Spas uses this same method except theirs hangs neatly inside.

I prayed to the hot tub gods for lower electric bills but they ignored my pleas. The DIY insulation did nothing for my energy costs.  I sold that Emerald and we don't miss it one bit.

Now the only hot tub I will buy is a full foam. I will be looking for one with a good base. I won't settle for one that is "sealed" with just a poly sheet. I think that is just a way for a manufacturer to cheap out.

I can see a Jacuzzi 345 in my future but no Colemans or Arctic or Royal or Spa Crest. No thermopane ever again.

That’s fine that you don't want to buy a TP spa again, but I can tell you that comparing Arctic's insulation method to Emerald’s is like comparing apples to oranges. I have said this on here before, but Arctic doesn’t even refer to their spas as using Thermo Pane insulation. Arctic Spas are built differently than any other TP spa out there, and that is why they are as energy efficient as any FF spa. They've got the "raw data" to back it up. See the link that Tom so kindly referenced.

Why didn't you just go with the Emerald full foam option Chubby??  :-?

[Spiderman]

What % of spas on the market are TP and what % are FF?  Anyone know?  

[wmccall]

Please shift the thread to BADH.

I'm watching, but for now, there is a little bit of originality this time, and I don't want to sqaush the enthusiasm of our newer members, but it will eventually get shifted there.

[Chubby Johnson]

As far as I know, Emerald does not offer a full foam option. Back when I was ordering mine a full foam option was never mentioned.   I have not been to the Emerald website or read one of their brochures lately so fo all I know they may offer it now.

One thing I think Emerald (and Arctic and Royal) does a wonderful job with is their fiberglass shell. No doubt they are strong. They will never have structural issues.  Wish I could say the same of their insulating method.  I guess there is good reason why most of the major manufacturers use full foam.....It Works!

[Water Boy]

As far as I know, Emerald does not offer a full foam option. Back when I was ordering mine a full foam option was never mentioned.   I have not been to the Emerald website or read one of their brochures lately so fo all I know they may offer it now.

One thing I think Emerald (and Arctic and Royal) does a wonderful job with is their fiberglass shell. No doubt they are strong. They will never have structural issues.  Wish I could say the same of their insulating method.  I guess there is good reason why most of the major manufacturers use full foam.....It Works!

As far as I know, Emerald does not offer a full foam option. Back when I was ordering mine a full foam option was never mentioned.   I have not been to the Emerald website or read one of their brochures lately so fo all I know they may offer it now.

One thing I think Emerald (and Arctic and Royal) does a wonderful job with is their fiberglass shell. No doubt they are strong. They will never have structural issues.  Wish I could say the same of their insulating method.  I guess there is good reason why most of the major manufacturers use full foam.....It Works!

Again, please don't lump Arctic Spas in the same category as the TP spas. They are not TP. Like I said before, in a third party independent test, Arctic Spas ranked right up there with some of the top FF spas, and even tested better than most. They are as energy efficient as any FF spa, even in cold weather climates like Michigan.

Here is how Arctic Spas are insulated:



Here is what your old spa used for TP insulation:


Again, there is no comparison. That is fine that you don't want to buy a TP spa like that again, as I wouldn’t either. But hopefully you can see now that there is no comparison between Arctic Spas and your old spa! They do it differenty than the other guys!

[Spatech_tuo]

Again, please don't lump Arctic Spas in the same category as the TP spas. They are not TP. Like I said before, in a third party independent test, Arctic Spas ranked right up there with some of the top FF spas, and even tested better than most. They are as energy efficient as any FF spa, even in cold weather climates like Michigan.

I wouldn't own a thermopane because IMO they just don't work as well as FF at avoiding heat transfer even if they promise their method works great and explain the theory. I do agree that Arctic is a different story because they don't follow the standard thermopane method and I can see why they don't like to get lumped in with the standard foil barrier methods.

[crystal777]

We are looking at a Sunrise that has neither Thermal Pane or Full Foam. It has Roxul insulatiion. It is a multi-layered instulation. Supposed to be much easier to work on if problems arise plus be great at insulating. It seems to me that full foam can be a major headache to repair...somtimes even having to send the hot tub out??? Is this true?? I know most have a 5 year warranty but lets's face it, you will probably have your hot tub a lot longer than that....so then what? I'm a newbie trying to figure it all out. Any truth to any of this stuff?

crystal777

[Spatech_tuo]

We are looking at a Sunrise that has neither Thermal Pane or Full Foam. It has Roxul insulatiion. It is a multi-layered instulation. Supposed to be much easier to work on if problems arise plus be great at insulating. It seems to me that full foam can be a major headache to repair...somtimes even having to send the hot tub out??? Is this true?? I know most have a 5 year warranty but lets's face it, you will probably have your hot tub a lot longer than that....so then what? I'm a newbie trying to figure it all out. Any truth to any of this stuff?

crystal777

I've never heard of Sunrise Spas but from their site I can see that they are a thermal pane spa even though they say otherwise for some reason. Also, most leaks down the road are in the equipment compartment (at the pumps, heater, etc.) so I wouldn't worry about the salesmanship you're being fed about imminent leaks and foam digs (and sending out a tub for leak repair is very rare so they're reaching). Leaks occur from poor quality so you're better off worrying about how well your spa is made,  whether it insulates well and that you're buying from a manufacturer known for backing their warranty (most all warranties look alike, not all spa makers take care of their customers the same way).

[Vinny]

I used to own an Emerald (a TP tub). One thing I know for an absolute fact is that I will never own a thermopane tub ever again.

Reason why?  My own "raw data" in the form of a sky high electric bill. The Emerald more than doubled my electric bill.

Keep in mind that I live in Michigan.  My wife and I were the only ones who used it so the cover was on most of the time.

I bought the tub new and ordered it with as much insulation as I could plus Reflectix. When the electric bills started rolling in I went to Home Depot and bought a box of Husky garbage bags and faceless fiberglass insulation. I filled the bags with the insulation and lined the interior with them. Royal Spas uses this same method except theirs hangs neatly inside.

I prayed to the hot tub gods for lower electric bills but they ignored my pleas. The DIY insulation did nothing for my energy costs.  I sold that Emerald and we don't miss it one bit.

Now the only hot tub I will buy is a full foam. I will be looking for one with a good base. I won't settle for one that is "sealed" with just a poly sheet. I think that is just a way for a manufacturer to cheap out.

I can see a Jacuzzi 345 in my future but no Colemans or Arctic or Royal or Spa Crest. No thermopane ever again.

I guess I should be thankful I bought an Artesian vs the Emerald I was looking at!

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I wouldn't own a thermopane because IMO they just don't work as well as FF at avoiding heat transfer even if they promise their method works great and explain the theory. I do agree that Arctic is a different story because they don't follow the standard thermopane method and I can see why they don't like to get lumped in with the standard foil barrier methods.

Clearwater does their spas like Artic. It works great if done right.

[Spatech_tuo]

Clearwater does their spas like Artic. It works great if done right.

I didn’t know Clearwater sprays a foam barrier along the bottom and along the insides of the cabinet walls like Arctic does? I assumed they used the standard thermo pane design of applying foil backed bubble wrap or foil backed foam to the cabinet walls.

[Tom]

Clearwater does their spas like Artic. It works great if done right.

I believe that there are now several brands using this method.  There are also quite a few brands 'borrowing' our trademarks; this helps keep our lawyers employed.

Still, imitation is the sincerest form of compliment.