Opinions on alternatives to chlorine/bromine

[pinebilly]

Hello,

I am buying a used hot tub (2 person solana tx) and I have a question regarding chemicals.  I am not a big fan of chemicals (either bromine or chlorine) and would like to try some alternatives on the market. 

What I am leaning towards are the "natural solution" products.  These are sold at naturalhottub.com.  I hope its not against the forum policy to post a link if so I apologize.  I am brand new to owning a hot and I am aware of a few other products on the market but in reality I am not that educated regarding if there is one or a few that are best and easiest (and WORK) or if people generally dont like them etc.

I was hoping that a few knowledgeable people on the forum could chime in and recommend a few products that they have experience with and like.

FWIW, The tub does not have an ionizer system in it, I will just be using the products.  I will also start by doing a FULL clean of the tub just to make sure I have it clean from the get go.  Also this is a two person tub I think the water capacity is like 150 gallons.  It will just be my wife and I and we are very clean people (shower etc).

Thank you,

Bill

[SerjicalStrike]

When you use chlorine correctly, you will not be soaking in any noticeable amount of chlorine.  Is there a specific reason why you don't want to use chlorine?

[Spatech_tuo]

When you use chlorine correctly, you will not be soaking in any noticeable amount of chlorine.  Is there a specific reason why you don't want to use chlorine?

Exactly. Often people think they want to avoid chlorine due to an experience with a public hot tub where they keep a high chlorine ersidual for obvious reasons. The two are not the same, these "natural" ideas (which never seem to actually perform well) are there to fill a void created by not understanding how chlorine works in a personal hot tub where you add it after use, it sanitizes and dissipates quickly before your next usage. I'll measure as much/more chlorine in my just filled bath water than my spa when I get in but you never hear people complain about their bath water causing skin issues.

[pinebilly]

Yes, I dont like the smell and how it affects (dries) my skin.  I also have a small child that we have in the tub for short amounts of time and I dont want her exposed to chlorine/bromine.  I am going to go with "the natural" I think.  Basically its either that or Eco One, they seem both very similar.  I find it rather funny/frustrating that a vast majority of people use chemicals (its the year 2011) when they could be using a much more natural solution.  

I dont want to have to take a shower after using the tub, I would rather shower pre or just rinse off and get in, enjoy the soak and get out and not have any chemicals on my body.  Maybe that is just me though (and my family).  It looks like people on the forum are using the natural and eco one mostly.  I would be interested for anyone to chime in with experience of these or other similar products.

Thanks in advance,

Bill

[Spatech_tuo]

Yes, I dont like the smell and how it affects (dries) my skin.  I also have a small child that we have in the tub for short amounts of time and I dont want her exposed to chlorine/bromine.  

I have 3 boys and if I was worried about them going in the spa due to the chlorine I'd also have to stop them from using the bathtub because if you do it right the spa won't have any more chlorine when you go in it that the bathtub does. Bromine is a different story as it keeps a more constant residual and I don't like using it for that reason but a chlorine-after-use method is great for people who worry about their skin since it dissipates so quickly after being added.

Try the "natural" method that many others go to for unsubstantiated reasons and when it fails as they invariably always do just come back here and we’ll set you straight on how to sanitize with chlorine after each use and have a trouble free, non-chemical smelling but properly sanitized hot tub.

[MileHighSpaTech]

I have been a huge fan of Aqua Finesse for customers who ask for products like you do.  Its a product from Europe and gaining alot of steam in the United States, I know very large and reputable dealers all across the United States who swear by it.  It lessens the amount of sanitizer needed and hydrates the skin.  I know a GM for a hot tub company in Nothern Colorado who uses it in her personal spa even though her own store doesnt carry it because they try and keep their customers on one system.

I might add an ozone system to the tub to also help you lessen the amount of sanitizer.

I am never infavor of companies who try and have "natural" sanitizers, but the Aqua Finesse system lowers your sanitizer to such a small dosage your only sanitizing the bacteria and micro-organisms introduced into the water.  I will say in Europe they use the system with ozone and do not use extra sanitizer but I dont recommend going to that extreme.  But the product and 2tsp of dichlor weekly plus 1tsp after use would be plenty clean and would keep your water softer and better smelling then anyother system I am aware of.

[SerjicalStrike]

  But the product and 2tsp of dichlor weekly plus 1tsp after use would be plenty clean and would keep your water softer and better smelling then anyother system I am aware of.

If you are doing that, why waste money on a second product besides cholrine?

[Spatech_tuo]

I have been a huge fan of Aqua Finesse for customers who ask for products like you do.  Its a product from Europe and gaining alot of steam in the United States...


  I will say in Europe they use the system with ozone and do not use extra sanitizer but I dont recommend going to that extreme.  But the product and 2tsp of dichlor weekly plus 1tsp after use would be plenty clean and would keep your water softer and better smelling then anyother system I am aware of.

Why does things in general seem to have more acceptance to many people when its "from Europe"?

Anyway, I applaud you for recognizing that you really need to use a sanitizer with this but with that being true (and it is true) I'd simply use the dichlor as you say and skip the ultra-expensive Aqua Finesse altogether and you'll be fine.

IMO using dichlor + Aqua Finesse is like a doctor telling you to take penicillin and an expensive sugar pill and you'll be fine; I'd skip the sugar pill.

[MileHighSpaTech]

I have never used a forum before, so I should probably learn to quote what I am responding to, I will do this later.

First to answer someones statement about why people say "From Europe" as if its a good thing; its a good thing because Europeans generally take better care of their bodies then we do.  They generally care more about their skin and health.

To answer the analogy about taking a sugar pill; without Aqua Finesse you would probably be adding 2-3+ Tablespoons per week which would be 3-4x the amount of Chlorine I recommended.  Depending on use a couple t-spoons would NOT be a proper amount of sanitizer without an additional product like Aqua Finesse.  If you want you could also use Nature II, ozone and spa shock without chlorine at all.  I know a very knowledgable Manager for a large hot tub dealer in San Diego used that system in his own personal hot tub, this was 5 years ago and he still doing the same thing.  Thats actually when I learned about the system was when I sat in his hot tub while visiting the Del Mar Fair.  (One of largest hot tub events in country)

The customer wants a higher quality of water.  ANY customer who comes to me and requests something easier or softer on their skin I recommend this product to every single one...not yet have I had one customer not completely happy to have made the switch.  I also consider myself very well networked in the industry both in Colorado and around the country, and have told friends about it and they seem to be getting great customer feedback.  So why you say its overkill or a waste, maybe you should try it in your own tub?  I dont personally use it in my tub, I know how to treat water and dont feel dry when I get out.

I guess everyone will always have their own opinions of what works and what doesnt, this is a system I know that works and that I would recommend atleast giving a try.  If you dont like it, well the nice thing is you can change to a different system later on right?

[Tman122]

I measured a higher content of chlorine in the city municipal water system than in my tub during my soaks. Always had clear CLEAN water.

[Spatech_tuo]

First to answer someones statement about why people say "From Europe" as if its a good thing; its a good thing because Europeans generally take better care of their bodies then we do.  They generally care more about their skin and health.

Sounds like something they'd say in one of those 30 minute commercials for some type of face/skin care product on TV at 2am. I'm not sure the Euros have all the secrets because if they did they'd have better teeth too.

The customer wants a higher quality of water.  ANY customer who comes to me and requests something easier or softer on their skin I recommend this product to every single one...

Any spa owner that comes to me and says they want to go "chemical free" I explain to them how their fears are misguided and explain the most effective way to go that won't have that "chemical smell" is a simple chlorine routine IMO. Aqua Finesse may be an effective addition to a sanitizer but its WAY too expensive and its not necessary IMO.

I guess everyone will always have their own opinions of what works and what doesnt, this is a system I know that works and that I would recommend atleast giving a try.  If you dont like it, well the nice thing is you can change to a different system later on right?

It may have some benefit and I can understand why dealers would want to cater to customers who are misguided on the use of sanitizers and that it simply is a good revenue generator but I'm not a fan of unnecessary expensive additions to water care. If AF wasn't so expensive I might feel differently. As you say, everyone has their own opinion.

[d00nut]

I hate Aqua Finesse... I love Silk Balance...  just saying.

But in all seriousness, Silk & Aqua Finesse are both expensive alternatives, but to a lot of people, they are worth it.  I know I use Silk Balance because it makes the water seem softer for my wife and she enjoys not itching when she exits the hot tub.  However, it does not allow you to stop using an EPA approved Sanitizer. 

To the OP, you need to use something that actually kills all the bacteria.  As I always say, Chlorine is better than Cholera.  I don't have any faith in "Natural" products in killing the bacteria in my spa... if it worked, we'd have a ton of EPA approved natural spa sanitizers.

[chem geek]

The EPA approved sanitizers that pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 are chlorine, bromine, Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB, and for spas only there is also Nature2 with non-chlorine shock (MPS).  So the latter is an "alternative" that is EPA approved and usually needs chlorine only once a week or so to keep the water clear.  It is described as the "Low-Chlorine Recipe" in the Nature2 manual.

Both AquaFinesse and SilkBalance have chemicals that claim to disperse and inhibit biofilms.  However, they are not enzymes nor oxidizers so will do nothing to get rid of bather waste.  This means that over time if an oxidizer is not used then one will be soaking in greater and greater amounts of their own sweat and urine (urea, creatinine, ammonia, etc.) as well as dirt, fecal matter, etc.  For best results when using such a system, one should be clean when entering the spa.  Such systems work much better in spas that have ozonators that can oxidize such introduced bather chemicals.  If one wants to oxidize without an ozonator, then one can use non-chlorine shock (MPS) and probably an occasional chlorine dose since MPS doesn't oxidize everything that chlorine does.

Note, however, that these two alternative products are not EPA approved because they do not kill bacteria quickly enough to prevent person-to-person transmission (which does not require biofilm formation, by the way).  In fact, they are not sanitizers at all and do not kill bacteria, inactivate viruses, etc.  They only inhibit/prevent biofilms.  They cannot be used in any commercial/public pool or spa in the U.S. without an EPA-approved sanitizer.  Even in Europe, such systems cannot be used in any commercial/public pool or spa without a fast acting disinfectant such as chlorine.  The German DIN 19643 standard is used with chlorine, but has expensive techniques for minimizing disinfection by-products (mostly coagulation/microflocculation/filtration and chemical removal via activated carbon with subsequent reinjection of chlorine).

The EPA does not regulate what is done in residential pools and spas.  FIFRA rules regulate the claims that can be made on product labeling, literature, websites, etc., but only with regard to efficacy of pathogen kill (i.e. claims of being a pesticide).  Neither AquaFinesse nor SilkBalance make any claims to kill bacteria, inactivate viruses or protozoan oocysts.  The lack of regulations for residential use is similar to that of food preparation procedures in kitchens.  If you want to leave out a chicken on your counter all day in the sun and then cut vegetables in the juices, the government isn't going to stop you or regulate this activity.  However, if you are a commercial kitchen then you must adhere to strict guidelines regarding refrigeration, timeliness of food preparation, cleaning of utensils, dishware and counter surfaces, etc.

[Chas]

Several people have made very good cases for using a simple regimen of chlorine for the very safest water in this thread. I hope you give it a try - do it right, and you will be safer and healthier. Done correctly - I know I'm repeating - you will be soaking in water that is safer and has less chlorine than tap water. I know how inviting it sounds when you hear about 'natural' things, but they seldom work better, or they would be the norm.

You mention that you find it funny that we don't have more or better 'natural' systems in this day and age. Well, as a dealer I find it funny when people walk away from a proven system based on incorrect assumptions. For example, people assume that if you add chlorine to your spa you will be soaking in chlorine. Not true - the chlorine does its job and leaves the scene. People assume that Chlorine is deadly - Not true at the tiny levels used in spa water. Used correctly, chlorine can and does make your soaking safer and healthier. And the powdered chlorine used in a spa can be handled safely with common sense.

Finally - be aware of two things: first, hot water dries skin. It just removes the natural oils. Go take a long hot shower tomorrow morning, or soak in a bathtub with piping hot water, and see.  So if you have found a system for a spa which 'leaves your skin feeling soft and silky,' you are most likely soaking in some sort of oily substance. That will take a toll on your filters, adding cost AND opening the door to serious health problems if you don't replace them often enough. It also tends to load up the plumbing system with various biofilms and/or other things which need to be blasted out with heavy chemicals on a regular basis. For some people who know you don't get 'something for nothing,' the trade-off is worth it. They don't mind buying a new filter more often or running a flush every year or two. But to me, THAT doesn't make sense, nor is it anywhere near the vicinity of 'natural.'

That last point is the main reason we finally gave up selling Baqua products in our store - our customers were clogging up filters every year, and getting nasty build-ups in the heating system (a low-flow system) which had to be cleaned with "Swirl Away" or similar pipe-cleaning chems. Or in several cases, I had to literally snake out lines to scrub the systems clean enough so the chems could finish the job. Switching back to chlorine cleared things up in every case.

As mentioned above, ozone systems and Nature2 cartridges can and do reduce the amount of chlorine you have to use to keep a safe, healthy spa. To me, that's the best of both worlds. And if it makes it more acceptable to you, keep in mind that ozone is all-natural, occurring in nature as ultra-violet rays hit the upper atmosphere, and lower as lightening makes it's way through air.

The main active ingredient in Nature2 carts is silver, in ion form, which also occurs in nature.

[MileHighSpaTech]

DooNut...how can you possibly like SilkBalance and hate AquaFinesse?  They are made to do the same things.

SpaTech_tuo...try it in your tub if you have one, if you dont have one then try and get a customer on it.  Is it for everyone?  NO, is it more expensive then just chlorine, YES...but is it a way to keep the water softer feeling, allowing you to use LESS chlorine and or other sanitizers, YES.  I am by no means a "soft" type of guy...but I even enjoy sitting in the hot tub with it more.

Chas/Chem Geek-Great posts, that chem geek guy really knows what he is talking about doesnt he?