Horse power

[clover]

Some of you may very well come here for that reason. It seems that others come here to trash competing brands and make ridiculous claims about the quality of the brands they sell.  It's tough to tell which people are helpful and which are full of it....but believe me I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

So....if you're in a helpful mood, perhaps you could let me know which brands exactly are considered the "Top brands" that you consider to be "energy efficient".  Also...maybe you could give me a list of the ones that aren't.   It might be a useful reference for people.

Josh, you have made a good decision on what you bought based on your evaluation of what the industry has to offer to you.  I believe what everyone here is saying is that they live it every day and have done so for more than 2 or even 3 decades of industry experience.  This does not make them right or wrong, but is does offer a great deal of input for them to form opinions and beliefs.

While we all have our individual beliefs, and we try to represent sell our products honestly and truthfully, we deliver a meaningful benefit to shopping consumers, even when we don't make a sale.  We still extend every courtesy to every shopping consumer in their plight to seek and find their best choice.  You have benefited from this experienced.

On the other hand, a consumer who has been shopping and listening to all of the dribble that comes out in the process about their Tub and the Tubs of others can only use their limited experience to form their opinion, of which you have many, and that's OK.  This alone does not make them knowledgeable about what the industry has to offer, or what the differences are, or for that matter, how important is horsepower.  

Shopping Consumers usually base their decisions on #jets, Horsepower, price, bells and whistles.  That is when we hear about their negotiation skills that allow them to get a free this or that, or something included FREE for nothing, whatever, but a great deal, none the less.  

Trash talk, overstated horsepower, great discounts certainly play a strong part in convincing the consumer who makes the eventual decision.  You end up buying something that stands out to YOU, and it is usually from someone you feel comfortable with.  That is a GOOD decision and a great experience.  

To discuss who's got what or what is more efficient than another's are topics that are of interest BEFORE a decision is made, not after.  That only brings up buyers remorse and a great levels of anxiety over what they bought.

[clover]

I wonder if a truly independent 3rd party has ever done a study like this....and done research on more than just one tub?

Because we live it every day, we can tell you the answer.  NO, and why would it benefit anyone other than a manufacturer or the consumer to study and identify their energy consumption.  The industry is young and the numbers are relatively small and do not justify a profitable return to afford the expense of third party examination.  As you indicate, IF the manufacturer did their own evaluation, it would not be viable in your mind.  

Who would pay the third party?  Who would benefits from the data?  The Maker, the Consumer, the Third Party?  What you want is viable and specific proof from an unbiased, outside resource who get's nothing for their time, efforts, or expenses in doing so.  Consumers Report's happens to be a viable third party source, but they have done nothing to this date.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Josh, the post directly above yours, posted 20 minutes earlier, has the Arctic study, that was done with many different spas, by a 3rd party... Are you not reading posts before responding??

[AstaLaVista]

Well Josh,

Hot Spring and Arctic are the [glow]only[/glow] brands that I know of that have published 3rd party testing.  For what it is worth:

http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy_testing.html

http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/

Of course, studies are open to interpretation.  Arctic studies use some criteria of temperatures that are outside the norm for millions of potential spa owners.  Hot Spring study refers to a specific use pattern that is probably close to real use for most people and refers to several ambient temperatures.

If there are and other 3rd party tests out there I would like to see them.  Not interested in any self reporting tests.

Yup... Doc.. there it is.. I was thinking the same thing.

[Spatech_tuo]

Josh, the post directly above yours, posted 20 minutes earlier, has the Arctic study, that was done with many different spas, by a 3rd party... Are you not reading posts before responding??

It would have been nice if the Arctic study compared itself with standard thermopane spas not just full foam spas. I gotta believe that since Arctic's design is not the same as the other thermopanes they proably wanted to distance themselves from any thought that they're just another thermopane spa design and wanted to compare themselves with full foam spas so they could say they insulate as well or better than full foam. It would have been interesting to have seen how Master, LA, Coleman, Dynasty, etc. and a few of the other larger thermopane spa makers would have faired in teh Arctic study.

[Steve]

Josh, buddy... slow down.

What exactly does "top brands" mean to you? Best selling based on annual sales? Does that matter one little bit? Most pros here don't think so including myself who has represented "top brands" and others.

Over the years I've been around here, MANY have asked (or demanded) we "spill the beans" on what we all think is the BEST. The best for whom you may ask? Great question!!

Top brands mean absolutely NOTHING! It doesn't mean they aren't great spas, but your idea of a great spa (ie. overall value to YOU) may well differ from what others deem "best".

It's no science determining who the big boys are. A Google search can find that out in seconds... The really tough part is finding out which is best for you and your family.

Do you think anyone here that has been selling a brand for years is going to suggest their's isn't amoung the best regardless of your criteria? Wade through the BS, list the keys facts that are important to you, determine your budget, find a dealer that is local and will support you after the sale and find a spa that fits you and your family! Listing the top 5 (or however many) brands is a waste of time for us and yourself...

Oh...and for the record... most major manufacturers are within a few bucks per month in operational costs so don't spend too much effort on it... No one company stands leaps and bounds over others in operational costs even though some will claim superiority. It's called marketing...

Steve

[Josh]

Because we live it every day, we can tell you the answer.  NO, and why would it benefit anyone other than a manufacturer or the consumer to study and identify their energy consumption.  The industry is young and the numbers are relatively small and do not justify a profitable return to afford the expense of third party examination.  As you indicate, IF the manufacturer did their own evaluation, it would not be viable in your mind.  

Who would pay the third party?  Who would benefits from the data?  The Maker, the Consumer, the Third Party?  What you want is viable and specific proof from an unbiased, outside resource who get's nothing for their time, efforts, or expenses in doing so.  Consumers Report's happens to be a viable third party source, but they have done nothing to this date.

Are you asking my opinion?
Ok:

How about all the spa companies pay a yearly service fee to be included as part of the research that a completely neutral third party who rates and reviews spas does?   For a nominal fee each year, this "Spa Review Board" would test every tub submitted to it in the same enviornment and publish their results for consumers and manufacturers alike.  They could review the energy efficiency, gallons per minute per jet, plus have a "comfort and quality" review section as well.  

Companies who scored well could hang their 5 star awards on banners outside their stores and on their websites.   Companies who didn't....well...they'd know in which areas to do better.

Perhaps some of the spa experts here could start something like this up?  I'm surprised with all the choices that one doesn't exist already. There's got to be a fortune in it.  

[Josh]

Josh, the post directly above yours, posted 20 minutes earlier, has the Arctic study, that was done with many different spas, by a 3rd party... Are you not reading posts before responding??

Did YOU read it?
The Arctic Spa study he linked  only listed 5 different brands, available in 2005.

I was looking for something a little more broad (if it existed).  It's been pointed out by clover that such a thing does not exist yet.

[Zep]

"No one company stands leaps and bounds over others in
operational costs even though some will claim superiority"

LOL

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I've read it, re-read it, archived a copy of it on 3 computers so as not to lose it, reposted it across the net, ripped it apart, and praised it for at least being done...........

Did YOU read it?
The Arctic Spa study he linked  only listed 5 different brands, available in 2005.

I was looking for something a little more broad (if it existed).  It's been pointed out by clover that such a thing does not exist yet.

[Chas]

I've read it, re-read it, archived a copy of it on 3 computers so as not to lose it, reposted it across the net, ripped it apart, and praised it for at least being done.......

He's not exaggerating Josh, we in the industry have very detailed knowledge of these studies.

 8-)

[Josh]

He's not exaggerating Josh, we in the industry have very detailed knowledge of these studies.

 8-)

I'm sure many of you do, I'm confused as to why he brought up the Arctic study when I said there should be an independent company that rates all the brands.....he jumped all over me and implied that I didn't read the posts.

Fact is, I DID read it....but saw that the Arctic study linked above only compares a handful of spas made by only 5 of the manufacturers.  So many brands that people frequently mention favorably around here weren't on that list.

I was simply suggesting that someone should do a study that's a little broader than that.

[Chas]

I was simply suggesting that someone should do a study that's a little broader than that.

I agree - it would be great.

HotSpring did have a study done. They offer all the details both online, and the company which did the study can duplicate the study on other tubs if manufactures would care to pay for the same testing. That would create a very good basis of comparison. I don't know why other manufacturers have not taken advantage of this opportunity.

 8-)

[Zep]

in a way Josh has a point.....it would be nice to see
an independent study that compared all major brands

just because two brands pay to have a study done & the
results show glowing results doesn't mean that other hot tubs
brands like Jacuzzi, Bullfrog, Sundance, D1, LA Spas, ect......
couldn't be just as good or even better at energy efficiency

in my industry, i feel like we are clearly the best in Dallas
but we do not pay to belong to the Better Business Bureau or
all the other industry groups.....we are a bit of a renegade......
our competition may have a glowing BBB status, but
that doesn't mean they are even close to being as
good as we are.

of course i understand thats not Hot Spring or Arctic's problem
if other tub makers dont spend money having studies done...
good for them....if they do

but it doesn't mean the others tub brands like
Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog, Coleman, D1, ect....have
any less energy efficiency than Hot Spring or Arctic.....

You guys hammer Josh for the "horse power" deal being a
marketing ploy but isn't it kind of the same thing with the
energy study, implying that Hot Spring or Arctic are any better
at energy efficiency than say Jacuzzi, Sundance, Coleman, or D1
when in reality they are probably all pretty close in energy consumption?

Are you guys claiming Hot Spring is superior or markedly different than
Sundance, Jacuzzi, or D1 in energy efficiency?

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Yeah...that data isn't really helpful considering they're only publishing the specs on their own models.  I'm more curious about comparisons against other leading (and not-so leading) manufacturers.