Horse power

[Chas]

Extra HP guarantees nothing but extra energy costs until the wet test shows its worth it.

That is it! That is the perfect summation of the point we have been trying to make.

Thanks.

 8-)

[Josh]

Extra HP guarantees nothing but extra energy costs until the wet test shows its worth it.

That is it! That is the perfect summation of the point we have been trying to make.

Thanks.

 8-)

I'm curious. Is there anyone here arguing that point?
I know I'm not.  Never was.

I think the original discussion arose because I said I wet tested one tub that had more horsepower than another (and that I thought I could really feel a difference). I liked the difference so much I bought the tub.  Clearly in that case...the extra HP was worth it.

When I said that, a few people started saying "Horsepower doesn't mean anything!" and trying to point out how maybe the less powerful tubs are somehow "designed better".  Shortly afterwards, this topic started.

I'm not sure anyone in this topic has offered any insight into the original discussion.  People have made plenty of great points about horsepower itself....but I'm still not sure anything's been said that offers any more insight into the original horsepower question that kicked off the topic.

Does extra Horsepower ever make a difference?
Is it just something that's mostly used as a selling point?
Are the numbers all lies?

IMHO....Horsepower can be used as a selling point...but during my testing, it seemed that sometimes a little extra provides a measurable difference in performance.

[Spatech_tuo]

I'm curious. Is there anyone here arguing that point?
I know I'm not.  Never was.

We're making valid points in a thread started to discuss this very topic. I'm not sure why that is an issue for you.

I'm not sure anyone in this topic has offered any insight into the original discussion.  People have made plenty of great points about horsepower itself....but I'm still not sure anything's been said that offers any more insight into the original horsepower question that kicked off the topic.

Funny, I thought there has been some very helpful posts for people who may be shopping and want to know why some seem to have twice the horsepower and why some dealers may focus in on HP while others will give a sales presentation and not even bring it up in discussion.

Does extra Horsepower ever make a difference?
Is it just something that's mostly used as a selling point?
Are the numbers all lies?

IMHO....Horsepower can be used as a selling point...but during my testing, it seemed that sometimes a little extra provides a measurable difference in performance.

Horsepower is certainly used in sales presentations as a selling point. Not everyone uses it with their fingers crossed behind their backs though.
  
The fact that a company would design a spa with two pumps and yet have an option to add a third pump is a telling fact. The design with two pumps meets peoples needs most of the time but they know they can appeal to those who want more by allowing a third pump. Is it needed? Probably not too often but it makes some extra sales. Its mostly about selling spas to the Tim Allen "grrrr, more HP please" crowd but its a "whatever makes the sale" approach and it makes the seller and the buyer happy so ...

Heck, there is a nut who sells spas over the internet who puts a couple huge pumps in his spas that require a 70A service. It basically removes back hair and makes the power meter spin wildly but he finds some who think that's what they want.

A friend of mine just bought a new truck last wekened. I don't remember the specs but he pretty much needs a ladder to get into it (he's about 5'5", 150 lbs) and it sounds like a power plant when he fires it up (diesel of course). A few of us joked that its his "compensator" toy. He drives it to work every day and it sits in the parking lot while he's in the office. Its all about "want" for him, not "need". If he bought a spa I guarantee he'd pay close attention to HP specs and the BHP guys would have him thinking "wow, 5 HP pumps, grrr" and he'd be wanting to add 2 extra pumps if he could.

[Gomboman]

I tested a Hot Springs tub that had 2 4.8hp (peak) motors and felt incredibly weak compared to a Jacuzzi with two 4.2hp motors.  In this case, even though the Jacuzzi didn't have as much power, it felt so much better than it's competition....so clearly, specs aren't everything. Of course...the Jacuzzi also cost quite a bit more....so maybe it's not fair to compare it against the cheaper Hot Springs model.

Josh, the HS models typically sell for more than similarly equipped Jacuzzi spas--at least in my area they do. I'm surprised that in your area the HS spas were "cheaper" than Jacuzzi.

[Josh]

We're making valid points in a thread started to discuss this very topic. I'm not sure why that is an issue for you.

I don't have any issues with any of the valid points in this thread.  


Speaking of which...you just made quite a few that had a lot to do with the topic, which I will reply to now:

Funny, I thought there has been some very helpful posts for people who may be shopping and want to know why some seem to have twice the horsepower and why some dealers may focus in on HP while others will give a sales presentation and not even bring it up in discussion.

I think the dealers who sell tubs with less horsepower didn't use it as a selling point because...well, they have less horsepower.  Most spa places I went to weren't exactly keen on pointing out the shortcomings of their product (they usually spent time talking about the shortcomings of everyone else's product).  The places that had more jets pointed out they had more jets.  The places that had more than 2 pumps talked about how they offered 3 pumps.  Everyone talked about their cool features....and when I'd ask about a cool feature I saw somewhere else....they'd generally tell me why it sucked.

As I've mentioned before, that was my least favorite thing about shopping for a hot tub.

  

The fact that a company would design a spa with two pumps and yet have an option to add a third pump is a telling fact. The design with two pumps meets peoples needs most of the time but they know they can appeal to those who want more by allowing a third pump. Is it needed? Probably not too often but it makes some extra sales. Its mostly about selling spas to the Tim Allen "grrrr, more HP please" crowd but its a "whatever makes the sale" approach and it makes the seller and the buyer happy so ...

Heck, there is a nut who sells spas over the internet who puts a couple huge pumps in his spas that require a 70A service. It basically removes back hair and makes the power meter spin wildly but he finds some who think that's what they want.

I think the companies that cater to people like that are smart.

 Once you've found a tub you like, why NOT get a few options to make it even better?  For me, that third pump made a difference.  I sat in one with two pumps and one with three in the same shop, and noticed a measurable difference in comfort...which was number one on my "Spa criteria list".  That's why I got it.

The places that install optional stuff like that are just catering to those folks that might want some choices beyond what's standard.  This is industry wide, not just limited to places with extra pumps.  Think about all the companies that offer TVs in the tubs, stereos with wireless iPod hookups,  a couple of extra LED lights, waterfalls and fountains.  All this stuff is useless for the most part....but there are people out there that think it's cool.  I admit that I'm one of them.

  

Its all about "want" for him, not "need". If he bought a spa I guarantee he'd pay close attention to HP specs and the BHP guys would have him thinking "wow, 5 HP pumps, grrr" and he'd be wanting to add 2 extra pumps if he could.

Do you think there's something wrong with that sort of mentality?

As a follow up:  Do most of us really "need" a hot tub?  Unless your physician is recommending it for physical therapy and it's covered by your health plan, these are generally luxury items we buy for relaxation, comfort and recreation.  When my old tub broke, I didn't need a new one, (could have had it fixed) but I shopped around, picked the tub I thought was the most comfortable, and made a deal. When I bought it....THAT'S when I added all the extra stuff.  I didn't buy it because of the extra stuff.  Every dealer had some sort of optional thing I could add on to trick out my spa.

This is all supposed to be fun....right?  

[Josh]

Josh, the HS models typically sell for more than similarly equipped Jacuzzi spas--at least in my area they do. I'm surprised that in your area the HS spas were "cheaper" than Jacuzzi.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm talking sticker prices. I didn't go back and try to wheel and deal with either dealership because neither one had a tub that was in my top two choices.   The Jacuzzi 470 would have been number 3....but I got a good enough price on my first choice that I didn't need to explore the backups any further.

[Spatech_tuo]

I think the dealers who sell tubs with less horsepower didn't use it as a selling point because...well, they have less horsepower.  Most spa places I went to weren't exactly keen on pointing out the shortcomings of their product (they usually spent time talking about the shortcomings of everyone else's product).  

Less HP than who? Sundance, Hot Spring, Marquis, Caldera, D1, and Jacuzzi all sell spas with similar HP. They are also the leaders in the industry relative to spas sold (and quality IMO). I hardly think it is a "shortcoming" the way they design their spas but more that some of the secondary players in the industry may have decided that one way to grab a slice of the pie is to market more HP or optional pumps or jets a la carte (the “any way you want it” way is a recipe for quality issues but that’s another subject). I don't blame them as they need a sales pitch and it works with a lot of people but it's certainly not an issue that the top guys are underpowering their spas LOL.

[powernoodle]

Gotta remember many people do not wet test spas.  They go by what the salesman pitch and company.  Some sales people have stretched the HP as sales pitches and it works on many people.  I have many customers that come in and the first thing asked is HP and nothing on how the spa is designed to flow the water.  They wanna hear power and how many jets.  I believe HP does help the flow of water but it also depends on how the spa is designed.  
We have 3 spas that have a 3rd pump.  All these spas are larger and more jets.  The third pump was designed and plummed for thee dome and foot jets only.
Therapeutic is suppose to be calming and soothing massage, not a body beating...lol

[Josh]

Less HP than who? Sundance, Hot Spring, Marquis, Caldera, D1, and Jacuzzi all sell spas with similar HP. They are also the leaders in the industry relative to spas sold (and quality IMO). I hardly think it is a "shortcoming" the way they design their spas but more that some of the secondary players in the industry may have decided that one way to grab a slice of the pie is to market more HP or optional pumps or jets a la carte (the “any way you want it” way is a recipe for quality issues but that’s another subject). I don't blame them as they need a sales pitch and it works with a lot of people but it's certainly not an issue that the top guys are underpowering their spas LOL.

If you want to call extra power a gimmick designed by a smaller company to cater to a certain market, I'll agree with you.  That's how smaller companies get bigger.  They look at what the leaders are doing, and if they want to become a leader, they need to match that performance, then do more.  Google used to be a little nothing search engine compared to giants like Yahoo, Alta Vista and Lycos, but they made a competitive product and now they're on top.  Most of the other leaders from 10 years ago are barely also-rans now.

I think the folks that are catering to folks like me (who like "More") are smart. I didn't buy my spa because of the sales pitch.  I bought it because of the wet test.  It was a better experience than any tub I sat in.   I largely ignored the sales pitch everywhere I went, because I got tired of listening to every dealer tell me why other spas sucked.  I decided to wet test, and let the spas speak for themselves, then I bought the one that felt the best to me.

People can argue until they're blue in the face that  extra horsepower doesn't matter, but in my research, it sure seems like it did.   I think the only way for other folks to see if it truly matters to them is to go jump in a bunch of tubs and find out for themselves.  Internet theories can only get you so far.

[Josh]

Gotta remember many people do not wet test spas.  They go by what the salesman pitch and company.  Some sales people have stretched the HP as sales pitches and it works on many people.  I have many customers that come in and the first thing asked is HP and nothing on how the spa is designed to flow the water.  They wanna hear power and how many jets.  I believe HP does help the flow of water but it also depends on how the spa is designed.  
We have 3 spas that have a 3rd pump.  All these spas are larger and more jets.  The third pump was designed and plummed for thee dome and foot jets only.
Therapeutic is suppose to be calming and soothing massage, not a body beating...lol

What brand do you sell?

[drewstar]

Heck, there is a nut who sells spas over the internet who puts a couple huge pumps in his spas that require a 70A service. It basically removes back hair and makes the power meter spin wildly but he finds some who think that's what they want.

 

When the basic design of a tub's insualtion is dependent on heat generated by the pumps,  what do you expect? Smaller, cooler running plumbing?  

[Josh]

When the basic design of a tub's insualtion is dependent on heat generated by the pumps,  what do you expect? Smaller, cooler running plumbing?  

I heard some spa dealer (I think Arctic) saying that the heat of their pumps kept the water at temperature, even in the coldest winters.  They pride themselves on barely needing their heater.

Pumps take energy, Heaters take energy......I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.   No matter what your design is, you're still just a big bowl for hundreds of gallons of water that needs to reach (and maintain) temperatures of over 100 degrees.

[Repeat_Offender]

Funny that was brought up. The most efficient pumps are those that convert most of the energy they consume into motion, while the least efficient are those that convert most of their energy consumed into waste heat. Of course that salesmans pitch will be how that "waste" heat all magically goes back into the water.
You can't win....

[Spatech_tuo]

If you want to call extra power a gimmick designed by a smaller company to cater to a certain market, I'll agree with you.  That's how smaller companies get bigger.  They look at what the leaders are doing, and if they want to become a leader, they need to match that performance, then do more.  Google used to be a little nothing search engine compared to giants like Yahoo, Alta Vista and Lycos, but they made a competitive product and now they're on top.  Most of the other leaders from 10 years ago are barely also-rans now.


 

Pumps take energy, Heaters take energy......I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.  

I guess I'll have to defer to your vast spa knowledge. I didn't realize how companies work in this industry, how spas are made and marketed or that "energy efficient" spas are silly.  

[In Canada eh]

 I believe HP does help the flow of water but it also depends on how the spa is designed.  

Powernoodle,

   I'm not picking on you but your statement goes exactly to the point I was trying to make.

  Horsepower has nothing to do with the movement of water at all, the pumps internal inpellor and the design of the plumbing system are the only things that contribute to the ease of water movement.

  Please remember that the pump and the motor are two different things.  Motors are rated by voltage and amps and that can be converted to horsepower.  Pumps are rated by flow rates and pressure the two have very little to do with one another, other then the higher the head pressure on the pump the more horsepower it will take to achieve the max flow rate along a pumps curve.

Josh,

   I'm glad you purchased a tub that you enjoy and I do not mean to say that there is anything wrong with the tub you bought.  I'm just trying to clarify a marketing strategy that the industry is using that makes very little sense