Horse power

[Josh]

could one also make many of the same "horse power means nothing"
arguments about cars?......because many cars are designed different
and some may be "designed better"?

I highly doubt it. Like hot tubs, comparing the two options is just not comparing apples to apples.  It's all about what kind of car each particular person wants to drive.

I can totally understand why proponents of a brand of hot tub that happens to have less horsepower might try to make arguments against tubs with more power or more jets. It's the same reason dealers who sell tubs that lack "Feature X" tend to point out how awful "Feature X" is and try to explain why "Feature Y" is better.

These sorts of statements shouldn't carry any weight in anyone's buying decisions. They're far too common and their main purpose is to confuse the buyer and sway them towards one choice or another.

If you want to find out whether or not more horsepower matters to you, all you have to do is Wet Test and see what feels the best. For me, sticking my hand in the tub doesn't really do it.  I needed to get in the tub....see how the jets felt.  Until I did that, pretty much every hot tub was the same.

 People can list all the "facts" they want to try to explain why horsepower doesn't matter...but in my tests, I discovered I liked the feeling of a tub that happened to have more jets and more horsepower than some others that I tested.  So I bought it.  I guess to me....it mattered after all.

[clover]

Back in the sixties, every macho male shopping for a car was very much interested in HP.  Then, cars were $3,000 and you had 3 years to pay it off.  Today, NOBODY even bothers to lift the hood, much less ask about HP, and we pay $30,000.

What is horsepower??  It means something to sombody and that is what we have here, but is it "marketing" HP, "peak performance" HP, or "delivered force" HP.

Marketing HP is what Chas refers to in his example.  It can be whatever you want to print on the label.  There are NO horsepower police here to monitor the industry.  5HP pumps, expecially 3 of them, would make your electric meter spin like crazy.  That does not go over well with the efficency minded.  If you go to a motor shop and try to buy a 5 HP motor, put it next to your Hot Tub 5 HP, you will understand that they are not comparable.  This HP is fantasy, but it makes an impact with consumers and it could be a material fact in the consumers decision.

"Peak HP" is the initial force at which the motor operates without a load or friction to reduce its' output.  Volts x Amps = Watts and watts consumed determines horsepower.

Every motor label has a SF rating usually around 10% which is what is lost to load, friction and work performance, etc.  This is deducted from the "Peak HP" to give us what is NORMALLY referred to as HP.

This battle has persisted for more than 15 years or longer and if you think the industry would want to do something about it, you would see flow meters on every spa leaving the factory.  

Guess what, you would even know when to clean your filter because of restricted GPM read out on the meter, Imagine that.

Marketing HP has proven itself to be effective for manufacturers in a highly competative field, such as this, especially during shopping comparisons by shoppers.  You would be absolutely amazed about what "shoppers" think about when looking at Hot Tubs.  The first thing you will here from the male shopper is, "how much horsepower do your have, and that is always followed by "How much is this one?", and most often in the first 5 minutes in the store.

Some of us may consider it to be deceptive, but we alone can not chage an industry.  I suppose the Hot Tub manufacturers could discuss it among themselves.  One company could even reveal their "TRUE" horsepower, but do you think their sales will go up or down in the competative environment.

[AstaLaVista]

I highly doubt it. Like hot tubs, comparing the two options is just not comparing apples to apples.  It's all about what kind of car each particular person wants to drive.

I can totally understand why proponents of a brand of hot tub that happens to have less horsepower might try to make arguments against tubs with more power or more jets. It's the same reason dealers who sell tubs that lack "Feature X" tend to point out how awful "Feature X" is and try to explain why "Feature Y" is better.

These sorts of statements shouldn't carry any weight in anyone's buying decisions. They're far too common and their main purpose is to confuse the buyer and sway them towards one choice or another.

If you want to find out whether or not more horsepower matters to you, all you have to do is Wet Test and see what feels the best. For me, sticking my hand in the tub doesn't really do it.  I needed to get in the tub....see how the jets felt.  Until I did that, pretty much every hot tub was the same.

 People can list all the "facts" they want to try to explain why horsepower doesn't matter...but in my tests, I discovered I liked the feeling of a tub that happened to have more jets and more horsepower than some others that I tested.  So I bought it.  I guess to me....it mattered after all.


 

I don't really think you understood what you have read in this topic.  You seem to take the bits and pieces that you want and leave the rest.

A. It is coincidence that you picked a tub that you like and claims to has more horsepower.  And like they said... it is still just a sticker.  Whether you have two or three pumps none of those motors are truly 5hp.

B.  Your model comes with 2.5 hp motors with 4.8hp break down torque.  That does not make them 5hp motors- no matter how you look at it.  If you like the tub great for you ... but it doesn't mean that horse power makes a difference.  What the Professionals on this site are saying is factual... but you keep bringing it back to your tub.  The only authority you have on this is what your sales person told you... They said they are 5 hp... You liked the way they felt.. So therefore in your mind it makes it true.  For all you know your spa could actually have 3 1.5 hp motors.... and it is just piped efficiently... making it feel stronger... but the only way the salesmen can put it in terms for the monkey to by the banana is to say it is high horse power.

So yes josh... You are happy with your tub I get that... It has strong jets... but that does not take away from all the experience on this site saying that HP doesn't matter.  What your point proves is that a sales person can add to their sales pitch by calling a 2.5 hp motor 5 hp (which I noticed on a HS brand you stated 4.8... never rounding that one up like your preferred brand) I could sell a handful or crap and call it chocolate… but its still just crap.  You have sat on this site and criticized anyone that showed any bias towards any tub... but I have seen quite a bit of that from you in terms of this HP issue.  The difference is you don’t have the experience to substantiate it.

[Josh]

Back in the sixties, every macho male shopping for a car was very much interested in HP.  Then, cars were $3,000 and you had 3 years to pay it off.  Today, NOBODY even bothers to lift the hood, much less ask about HP, and we pay $30,000.

That's sort of a silly statement.

There are dozens of models of car that are still all about horsepower and torque today.  The Viper  has risen from 350-600 horses over the years.  Vettes have been trying to match it by climbing hundreds of horses as well.  People also add thousands of dollars in parts to standard cars to turn them into racing machines that can hit 100mph faster than most cars go 0-60.

Now, I'll grant you that not a lot of people care how many horses their VW Jetta or Honda Civic has, but that's a totally different kind of car (and a different driving experience).

Hot tubs are the same way.  There are standard models and models with all the bells and whistles.  For many folks, a few seats and a few jets are all they need.  For others, they want full surround sound speakers and a 42" Plasma TV that pops out of the side.

That wide spectrum of choices and differences is a GOOD thing....and I don't blame companies for creating stickers and spec-sheets that call out their particular bragging rights.

[Repeat_Offender]

Someone needs to lighten up. First of all Josh clearly stated his opinions are based on his experience. He is a consumer and as such has nothing to gain by trying to sway other members here. Secondly, being a salesperson in NO WAY qualifies you as an expert. Period. As a matter of fact most consumers would describe the vast majority of salespeople as, in your words, "trying to pass off a handful of crap as chocolate." Nothing new there.

[AstaLaVista]

Someone needs to lighten up. First of all Josh clearly stated his opinions are based on his experience. He is a consumer and as such has nothing to gain by trying to sway other members here. Secondly, being a salesperson in NO WAY qualifies you as an expert. Period. As a matter of fact most consumers would describe the vast majority of salespeople as, in your words, "trying to pass off a handful of crap as chocolate." Nothing new there.

Don't know if you were talking to me.... but I clearly stated they were professionals...and experienced... I did not once call anyone an expert.  
What I was trying to point out to Josh is that it is all about perception.

[Spiderman]

I tested a Hot Springs tub that had 2 4.8hp (peak) motors and felt incredibly weak compared to a Jacuzzi with two 4.2hp motors.  In this case, even though the Jacuzzi didn't have as much power, it felt so much better than it's competition....so clearly, specs aren't everything. Of course...the Jacuzzi also cost quite a bit more....so maybe it's not fair to compare it against the cheaper Hot Springs model.

Which Hot Spring models did you test??

[Chas]

could one also make many of the same "horse power means nothing"
arguments about cars?......because many cars are designed different
and some may be "designed better"?

I have given this a lot of thought - thanks for bringing it up.

Many years ago the Gummit mandated new ways of advertising/selling cars. They required that auto makers begin using the numbers which could be measured at the wheels on the exact model of car. No more engineering tricks which basically said, "if this engine was run in a lab under perfect conditions it should make XX HP." It had to be real-world, and it had to apply to the exact model with the exact options you were looking at - in other words, the car, not just the engine. If you doubt that, go look at some brochures or read magazine reviews of new cars. They list the HP ratings with auto transmissions, manual transmission, deluxe models, sport models, and some may have still other ratings if you add a towing package or whatever.

It would be great if there was a number in the Tub industry which was as accurate at showing the actual functional power of a tub as it sits in your yard. The closest I can come is to offer this: put your hands in front of the jets in a running spa of the same make and model you are looking at.

[Josh]

I don't really think you understood what you have read in this topic.  You seem to take the bits and pieces that you want and leave the rest.

Well, yeah. I don't have an opinion on every single point someone has brought up in this topic, I've just been responding to the stuff I do have an opinion on.  

A. It is coincidence that you picked a tub that you like and claims to has more horsepower.  And like they said... it is still just a sticker.  Whether you have two or three pumps none of those motors are truly 5hp.

I don't believe that it's coincidence at all.  I picked the spa I picked because it provided a vastly superiror experience to anything else I tested.  Several of the tubs were close to one another, and had several good points each....but this one blew them all out of the water.   What was so great about it?  For one, it felt like it had more power. For two, the positioning and number of jets.  After that was the layout and finally....the "accent" options I added to it.

Regarding the horsepower....if it's "Just a sticker"...then how there was such a big difference in how powerful the tub felt to me?  If I had to guess, I'd say it was because there were more pumps pushing more water through more jets faster than the other models I tested.  I could be wrong.

B.  Your model comes with 2.5 hp motors with 4.8hp break down torque.  That does not make them 5hp motors- no matter how you look at it.  If you like the tub great for you ... but it doesn't mean that horse power makes a difference.  What the Professionals on this site are saying is factual... but you keep bringing it back to your tub.  The only authority you have on this is what your sales person told you... They said they are 5 hp... You liked the way they felt.. So therefore in your mind it makes it true.  For all you know your spa could actually have 3 1.5 hp motors.... and it is just piped efficiently... making it feel stronger... but the only way the salesmen can put it in terms for the monkey to by the banana is to say it is high horse power.

I'm not disagreeing with anything in the quote above, nor I am not claiming to be some kind of authority on horsepower.  I'm not claiming I have some special  facts (other than what's on the spec sheets) that scientifically prove that the hot tub I bought has more horsepower than another tub I tested.  The only thing I've said in this thread is what certain tubs felt like to me.  

Other people are the ones making all the statements about what horsepower does and doesn't mean.

So yes josh... You are happy with your tub I get that... It has strong jets... but that does not take away from all the experience on this site saying that HP doesn't matter.  

I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just not saying that I believe they're right.  I think the real answer lies in the middle somewhere. I believe bigger (or more) pumps can obviously effect the performance of a tub.....but I also believe that if it's designed well, something with less horsepower can still perform really well.

What your point proves is that a sales person can add to their sales pitch by calling a 2.5 hp motor 5 hp (which I noticed on a HS brand you stated 4.8... never rounding that one up like your preferred brand) I could sell a handful or crap and call it chocolate… but its still just crap.  

I didn't round either one up.  I took the data from the Spec Sheet on Hotspring.com and the data from LASpas.com when I was posting my example.   The LA Spas site says their pumps are 5HP max, with 2.5 continous.  The Hot Springs one says 4.8 max with 2.5 continous.  The Heet I bought has 3 pumps.  The Vista I looked at had 2.  If you check the websites...you'll find the same numbers I did.    Perhaps they're all lies....(or perhaps just the LA Spas site is all lies).  I have no idea, they're just the numbers I used when I was talking about how much power one tub said it had compared to another one.  I wasn't rounding anything off to support an opinion.

Truth is, horsepower numbers didn't factor into my search at all.  It was all about comfort for me.  The numbers were just an afterthought and something we've discussed here.

You have sat on this site and criticized anyone that showed any bias towards any tub... but I have seen quite a bit of that from you in terms of this HP issue.  The difference is you don’t have the experience to substantiate it.

If people want to say horsepower means nothing and that the only reason that tub felt better to me is because it was "designed better"....I'm not sure that's factual, but I won't say it's impossible.  Personally, I'd assume that it just had more pumps and that made more water move around.  But what do I know?  I'm no expert. 

Either way, I'm not attempting to be biased or prove that the Heet was better than the Vista or something. Both tubs are good, one was just better for ME.

[Repeat_Offender]

Don't know if you were talking to me.... but I clearly stated they were professionals...and experienced... I did not once call anyone an expert.  
What I was trying to point out to Josh is that it is all about perception.

Experienced salespeople. Nothing necessarily whatsoever to do with expertise. Therefore their opinions may carry no more weight than the average consumer, and in a lot of cases less than an educated one.

[Josh]

Which Hot Spring models did you test??

I tried out an Envoy and the Vista.  I also had the Grandee and Vanguard on my list...but ruled the latter two out after I decided to go for a model with a lounger.  Of the loungers I tested....neither was "the one" although I liked both a lot.  The back massagers in the hot springs tubs (up and down) were unique among any tub I tested (and by far my favorite thing about that brand).  I loved the Wireless stereo receiver and pop up speakers so much that if I would have bought a Hot Springs tub, I would have had one installed.

Someone needs to lighten up. First of all Josh clearly stated his opinions are based on his experience. He is a consumer and as such has nothing to gain by trying to sway other members here. Secondly, being a salesperson in NO WAY qualifies you as an expert. Period. As a matter of fact most consumers would describe the vast majority of salespeople as, in your words, "trying to pass off a handful of crap as chocolate." Nothing new there.

Thanks Repeat Offender.  I'm certainly not trying to pass my opinions or personal experience off as anything but.  If anything....I'm trying to understand why people think horsepower means nothing.  Personally....it seems like common sense to me that more horsepower or more pumps would simply move more water around.  To hear otherwise is sort of suprising to me, but I'm not saying I know better or anything.  

[In Canada eh]

 If anything....I'm trying to understand why people think horsepower means nothing.  Personally....it seems like common sense to me that more horsepower or more pumps would simply move more water around.  To hear otherwise is sort of suprising to me, but I'm not saying I know better or anything.  

Josh,

   A good example of this is the plant I work at, we have 3, 8000 gpm pumps, 2 are 600 hp and one is 750 hp.  This is largely due to the fact that the 2 600 hp pumps are vertical turbine and the 750 hp pump is a double end suction split case.  The vertical turbine is a lot more efficient and uses multiple impellers to increase flow rates.  While all 3 are 8000 gpm the design of the pump allows 2 of them to use a lower hp motor

[Josh]

Josh,

   A good example of this is the plant I work at, we have 3, 8000 gpm pumps, 2 are 600 hp and one is 750 hp.  This is largely due to the fact that the 2 600 hp pumps are vertical turbine and the 750 hp pump is a double end suction split case.  The vertical turbine is a lot more efficient and uses multiple impellers to increase flow rates.  While all 3 are 8000 gpm the design of the pump allows 2 of them to use a lower hp motor

I'm not sure I understand how that example applies to this particular topic.  I don't think anyone is going to argue about whether or not you can squeeze good performance out of something that has less horsepower if it's engineered properly.  People here are talking about whether or not horsepower matters at all.

As far as hot tubs go.....if a tub with more pumps (or higher horsepower pumps) feels better (and feels more powerful) than one with fewer pumps (or fewer horsepower) doesn't that mean that in that particular instance....it's possible that it's benefitting from that extra power?  

Or do you think it just means that particular tub is engineered better...and that the amount of pumps (or horsepower of pumps) doesn't mean anything?

[AstaLaVista]

Josh,

   A good example of this is the plant I work at, we have 3, 8000 gpm pumps, 2 are 600 hp and one is 750 hp.  This is largely due to the fact that the 2 600 hp pumps are vertical turbine and the 750 hp pump is a double end suction split case.  The vertical turbine is a lot more efficient and uses multiple impellers to increase flow rates.  While all 3 are 8000 gpm the design of the pump allows 2 of them to use a lower hp motor

That was a very good way to explain it.... I still don't think he got it.

[Spatech_tuo]

As far as hot tubs go.....if a tub with more pumps (or higher horsepower pumps) feels better (and feels more powerful) than one with fewer pumps (or fewer horsepower) doesn't that mean that in that particular instance....it's possible that it's benefitting from that extra power?  

In that example, sure, if it feels better then the extra pump/horsepwoer may be worth it.

The problem is there are a many spa makers out there that do not efficiently design their spas and the extra HP/pump really isn't a benefit over another spa that may have less HP but is better designed. This is why a wet test is so important. Extra HP guarantees nothing but extra energy costs until the wet test shows its worth it.