Filtration in hot tubs

[wmccall]

Is Coast the only spa that has a filter that can be removed without dumping the filtered stuff back into the tub?  That was one thing that stayed with me from a demo at the fair.  I think about it every time I take my filter out of the filter well and grass and other stuff falls off the filter when I take it out.

[windsurfdog]

Is it really worth the added cost of all those filters AND all the additional time required to clean them?

And add to Doc's statement these thoughts re: 100% no-bypass filtration:  Hot Springs has hit their design limit re: number of therapy pumps--2--without adding yet more filters (at least 2/pump).  I don't see anyone getting excited about dealing with 7 or more filters.  Hot Springs owners will counter that 2 therapy motors are all that are needed....and I'm happy that they are satisfied....but there are many of us non-HS owners who enjoy the added power and flexibility/adjustability that 3 or more therapy pumps provide.

And one more thought.....if Watkins is so high on 100% no-bypass filtration, why are not all of their tubs designed so?......hmmmm.....

[J._McD]

I hate to bring this up since it will probably go to the Dead Horse section anyway. Why is HS the only manufacturer to use No-Bypass? I'm not saying it's better or worse. Does HS hold Intellectual Property on this design? I would think at least one other company would grab on to it if it had merit.  

This would be my point of view and is not intended to mislead anyone about how Hot tubs work.

You take you weakness and you make it your strength.  Years ago, HS sell would always be the last to leave the show and they would leave their spa on full tilt because the circ pump would not keep up with the needed filtration.  

We were strong advocates of Ozone back in the mid 80's, and I had several customer neighbors call us out to look at their green water spas because they wanted to apply ozone.  We couldn't recommend it because of the injection rate and filtration rate.

One of the biggest claims of competition with HS was all of the filters you had to clean.  Needless to say it was a turnoff.  Make you weakness your strength, let's call it "no-bypass" filtration, becouse "bypass" was a common term used in the "80's regarding filtration.

This gives credibility to all the filters, and the NEW "tri-x" filters are being promoted to be sooo easy to clean in the diswasher.  Some people are opposed to this concept.

ALL SPAS FILTER WATER AND DO IT EFFECTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY INCLUDING HS AND EVERY OTHER MANUFACTURER MENTIONED HERE.  To say their filtration is in any way superior is to do exactly what Pkud is worried about, misleading the unknowing consumer.

Well "100% no-bypass" is NOT misleading, but they seem to imply no other spa is worthy of consideration because it does not even begin to compare to their 100% blah, blah.

Is there ANYONE on this form that has a spa with POOR filtration.  Please speak up.

Another reason for so many filters is that every pump must have 2 suction fittings to prevent the potential of suction entrapment.  HS simply puts filters on both suction fittings for their big pumps.

[salesdvl]

And one more thought.....if Watkins is so high on 100% no-bypass filtration, why are not all of their tubs designed so?......hmmmm.....

I know this one.  I remember a conversation I had while having dinner w/ the Pres of Watkins many years ago.  We were discussing various spa models and he was asked why they didnt put a moto-massage on the Prodigy.  His response was to give seperation and reasons to upgrade.  He said that he didnt want people to buy the Prodigy, he wanted them to upgrade to the Sovereign.  therefore, the reason they do not put the same filter plumbing in the Tiger River, Caldera, etc.. is to be able to charge the premium price for this "premium feature".  In fact, years ago they printed up a sheet that could be handed out that listed the "Premium Features" that were on a Hot Spring that could not be found on any other spa.

[shabba34]

And add to Doc's statement these thoughts re: 100% no-bypass filtration:  Hot Springs has hit their design limit re: number of therapy pumps--2--without adding yet more filters (at least 2/pump).  I don't see anyone getting excited about dealing with 7 or more filters.  Hot Springs owners will counter that 2 therapy motors are all that are needed....and I'm happy that they are satisfied....but there are many of us non-HS owners who enjoy the added power and flexibility/adjustability that 3 or more therapy pumps provide.

More mis-information.  325 sq ft filtering 180-200gpm pumps.  Seems to me they have plenty of available sq ft of filtration to do what ever they want while still maintaining no bypass filtration.

[Chas]

I hate to bring this up since it will probably go to the Dead Horse section anyway. Why is HS the only manufacturer to use No-Bypass? I'm not saying it's better or worse. Does HS hold Intellectual Property on this design? I would think at least one other company would grab on to it if it had merit.  

Every swimming pool has it. They, like HS figure that if you are going to be moving a lot of water then you might as well filter a lot of water.

I think many of the competitors would gladly jump onto no bypass if it weren't for the fact that HS gave it a name and sells the daylights out of it. So now, it would look like they are agreeing with HS and saying that bypassing the filter doesn't make sense.

Also - somebody suggested that it is not easy to accellerate the life-expectancy tests on a filter. I heard a rumor - just a rumor folks - that HS wore out a dishwasher in the testing lab trying to establish how many times a Tri-X could be cleaned before it began to show signs of wear. Doesn't sound like it was all that hard to figure that one out.

[Chas]

It is funny to watch competitors try to reason this one away.

Sundance has it's disposable filters, and they will gladly tell a shopper why that is the best way to do things.

I have HS and Caldera on my floor, and I can attest to the fact that the HS are easier to keep clean. Same with Tiger River. And keep in mind that the Caldera tubs come on twice a day for a purge of the system and filtration. Yet the HS still stay cleaner and will recover from a wet test faster.

Say what you want, I believe that it is the better system. I have to run the Caldera for a couple of hours to equal the filtration that the ten-minute cycle gives on a HS.

[salesdvl]

For me, it's not an issue about trying to say that HS is wrong or that their filtering system is not good.  The issue, for me, continues to be the insinuations that HS has the only quality filtration.  Their 100% No-Bypass filtration is just a feature.  Thats it.  A feature.  Something to talk about during their presentation.

[KarlXII]

Personally I think it might be a good thing to filter all the water, if possible, but it is probably not half (or less) as important as to keep your chemistry OK. The stuff that's dangerous for you doesn´t get stuck in the filter after all.

So for me 100% percent filtration was not a critical feature in deciding what tub to choose.

The water in my tub IS clean, so if it makes a turn in the jet pump and out again - so what?  

[salesdvl]

Also - somebody suggested that it is not easy to accellerate the life-expectancy tests on a filter. I heard a rumor - just a rumor folks - that HS wore out a dishwasher in the testing lab trying to establish how many times a Tri-X could be cleaned before it began to show signs of wear. Doesn't sound like it was all that hard to figure that one out.

I brought up the "accellerated testing".  The example I thought of, but wasnt going to go into was the "bromine generator" Watkins swore was going to be the reatest thing ever.  I remember they said they had doen all kinds of longevity testing and one of the big Wigs had it at his house for a few months and it was working great.  I dont think it ever made it to production because it didnt work.  They also did extensive "accellerated" testing on their first attempt at the chrome look jets a couple years ago and had to recall all of the ones that got shipped because they found the finish was pealing off.( and I was told that by the Watkins Rep.)  I remember getting my Prodigy, unwrapping it, and being told that Watkins issued a statement not to let any of the chrome jet models go out that there was a problem with the jets.  The same day I got the Prodigy, our service tech was out to change the jets back to the plastic kind.  So, they may have worn out a dishwasher, and the tri-x may last forever, who knows.  
My point was that there is no substitute for time.

[Mendocino101]

I think many of the competitors would gladly jump onto no bypass if it weren't for the fact that HS gave it a name and sells the daylights out of it. So now, it would look like they are agreeing with HS and saying that bypassing the filter doesn't make sense.

Chas,

I have to disagree with you here. If a maker can make a substantial improvement to their product no matter who it is. At some point they are going to do it. In the end if it means more sales they may even put another twist on it. I know nothing about this but just a feeling I have is that Hot Springs will along with others recently have gone go to a larger circ pump if they have not already. I think they probably will have auto clean up cycles as well now this is purely speculation on my part but lunch is on me if in the next few years they do not or as Caldera does they to will have the larger pumps run sometime during the day.

[J._McD]

More mis-information.  325 sq ft filtering 180-200gpm pumps.  Seems to me they have plenty of available sq ft of filtration to do what ever they want while still maintaining no bypass filtration.

Now I find your statement misleading, with 2 pumps pushing 180 to 200 gpm, that's let's say 400 gpm and with 47 jets (the most you can get w/HS) that is less than 10 gpm per jet.  That is kind of whimpy and the reason why other manufacturers have gone to 3-4 & 5  pumps to have "meaningful" performance output from each jet.

The best example for the shopper here is to see 100% of all the jet's turned on (sometimes you can NOT do that) to see how much force is coming out of the jets.  But then of course, IF you power up just one seat, now that is performance, but to power up all the seats with your friends, sometimes you just can not do that.

This again is why this is a very competitive industry.  One manufacturer does not have the answer to everybody's want's or desires.  So many people get sooo confused while shopping they fall back into the safety net and simply buy a HS because they feel they are #1 because they are a good choice.

AND THEY ARE.  But, that leaves a lot of other very good and even better choices for shoppers to consider.  It is the FEAR factor of making the wrong decision.  Most every shopper here did a lot of research before making that decision and I see a lot of different brands represented here, NOT jus HS and they LOVE they Hot Water Choice.

All this bragging about #1 is MARKETING, they even admit it is not an audited number.  100% blah, blah, is MARKETING.  Cleaning filters in the diswasher is MARKETING.  Who is misleading who.

[salesdvl]

I have HS and Caldera on my floor, and I can attest to the fact that the HS are easier to keep clean. Same with Tiger River.

And I can attest to the opposite.  I had Hot Spring displays that were alot more difficult to keep clear than my other displays.  Interestingly, I remember the MasterSpa displays were generally very crisp with very little effort.  We used to comment about how the HS were supposed to be better filtration yet didnt clear up as easily.

[hottubdan]

Now I find your statement misleading, with 2 pumps pushing 180 to 200 gpm, that's let's say 400 gpm and with 47 jets (the most you can get w/HS) that is less than 10 gpm per jet.  That is kind of whimpy and the reason why other manufacturers have gone to 3-4 & 5  pumps to have "meaningful" performance output from each jet.

The best example for the shopper here is to see 100% of all the jet's turned on (sometimes you can NOT do that) to see how much force is coming out of the jets.  But then of course, IF you power up just one seat, now that is performance, but to power up all the seats with your friends, sometimes you just can not do that.

This again is why this is a very competitive industry.  One manufacturer does not have the answer to everybody's want's or desires.  So many people get sooo confused while shopping they fall back into the safety net and simply buy a HS because they feel they are #1 because they are a good choice.

AND THEY ARE.  But, that leaves a lot of other very good and even better choices for shoppers to consider.  It is the FEAR factor of making the wrong decision.  Most every shopper here did a lot of research before making that decision and I see a lot of different brands represented here, NOT jus HS and they LOVE they Hot Water Choice.

All this bragging about #1 is MARKETING, they even admit it is not an audited number.  100% blah, blah, is MARKETING.  Cleaning filters in the diswasher is MARKETING.  Who is misleading who.

As I am sure you know, typically the 47 jets are not on all of the same time.  Since most of the time the diverter valves (pretty much an industry standard feature) are set to one side or the other, using your numbers, we now have 20 gpm.

You probably know on a Hot Spring, you do not power up just one seat.  Depending on the spa, you power up half or a quarter of the spa.

I am a dealer.  I am the one who "admitted" the numbers of our industry are not audited.  From my discussions with upper management (the mother ship), Watkins would be the first to agree to independent auditing of spas manufactured.

Cleaning the Tri X filters in the dishwasher is simply a feature.  If features are marketing, so be it.

[rick]

What's a diverter valve?

My Coleman has no such thing.  

All six seats get therapy unless I close individual jet nozzles.  


Let me ask you all this:

Does you spa have a cloth like round thin filter pad that sits on top of your skimmer?  

Coleman has been doing this for some time now but I never hear about anybody else doing it.

It is a front line defense from any debris getting into the pipes.  Just take it off once a week and hose it off.  Amazing how much crap accumulates there.  

Also, didn't realize how much hair I'm losing,  arghhh!

As a result,  my single filter takes quite a long time to get dirty and require a rinse and clean.  

2 year old spa,  still on same original filter.