By-pass Filtration

[shabba34]

So in our vast knowledge combined, what would be the relationship to pump longevity (and other spa componants such as heater, pump seals, etc.) when considering the 2 aspects in question?

Failure due to improper watercare � �____ %
Failure due to industry std filtration � ____ %

I'll start with my best guess based on experience...

Failure due to improper watercare � � �99 %
Failure due to industry std filtration � � �1 %

Which in turn makes my 5% comment earlier a very high guess to the importance of it.

I do like the marketing aspect of it. It's the same reason Beachcomber makes Protec, �Hydropool makes self clean, Arctic makes perimeter lock and so on...

It's the same reason why I could go on about the advantages of self clean and the benefits of pressurized filtration in a sales presentation...It's the reason why I sold a boat load of Beachcomber's back in the day...

Steve

Customer neglect in maintaining clean filters can skew those opinionated %'s tremendously.  Every manufacturer can have issues with this and it has nothing to do with water chemistry.  That is if you are not including cleaning your filters in your improper watercare %'s.  However, I do agree that improper watercare is of a much higher % to failure rate then the filtering sysem itself.  Unlikely 99% to 1%.

[Chris_H]

You talking to me?

We have had very few failure rates with our jet pumps. �If others are having as great a success as us, that's wonderful and bodes well for our industry.

Have you had that same success with heaters?

[ssbraun]

Now I'm genuinely curious here...When a jet pump fails, what's the usual issue?  Seals, motor?

[Chas]

“Industry standard.”

Hmm.  

Prior to 1965 the "Industry Standard" in the automotive realm was bias ply tires, drum brakes, carburetors, and no seat belts.  

There has to be a leader in every industry, or the 'standard' will prevail.  

Of course, as I have postulated before, since there are more HotSpring tubs out there than most other brands combined, it sort of make HS the 'standard.'

Also - did you fine folks know that HotSpring is the FIRST tub to be certified by the NSF? No, I'm not talking about the fact that Sundance claims to have the only NSF filter certified by the NSF - they don't, BTW HotSpring already has NSF certified filters - but HotSpring is the ONLY tub currently certified by the NSF for OVERALL spa safety and performance for the ENTIRE SPA.

Ha.

(Did I say that?)

[Spatech_tuo]

as you don't tell me to put a circ pump where it shouldn't be...lol �

I know what you mean; I was going to suggest we're getting a bit over the top here too but after the last time I chimed in and was chastized I'm afraid I'll get that other guy to send his circ pump warning my way. I know circ pumps are small but they're not THAT small!

[J._McD]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were serious.

I have no argument regarding the water quality. �I never have and never will. �I realize that the CLEAN water exiting a HotSpring pump mixes with the dirty water already in the spa the same as everyone else's DIRTY water exiting the pump mixes with the dirty water already in the spa. �When it's in the spa and there are people in the spa, it's DIRTY.

BUT, ours is CLEAN again before it enters the pump. �Cleansed of hair and dead skin. �The pump doesn't get hair and dead skin sucked into it. �I imagine that if most consumers understood that point better, HotSpring would sell even more spas than they already do.

I'm sure the water IN THE SPA (not the pump or heater or plumbing) of your Beachcomber was just as clean as anyone else. �No argument here.

Terminator �

I think we all agree that you belive what you (imagine) think, and we certainly don't want to challenge that.  You show such passion, you could be confused with another passionate poster not allowed here.

But, your implication all of these gross solids that you say are sucked in through fittings, which won't allow them to pass through the fittings, are somehow doing damage to everyone else's Hot Tubs if they don't have YOUR concept of "no-bypass" filtration.  how is it we are able to sell them?

But then, your statement above says "I'm sure the water IN THE SPA (not the pump or heater or plumbing) of your Beachcomber was just as clean as anyone else.  No argument here", isn't this the source of of pump suction that sends water through the pump, heater and plumbing where you say all those nasty things getting sucked in.  

Apparently you must believe our hair falls out, our toenails are sucked off, our skin dies and falls off, and all of those other things in your illustration (that you imagine) are pulled through those tiny little suction holes in the foot well fittings after we enter the Tub.  I can see you really believe all of this and that is begining to worry some of us here.

I think you need to take your blinders off and agree there are some other brands and worthy products for consumers, OTHER THAN YOUR BRAND and biased opinion.  

BTW, I am not your competitor, nor are the other dealers that sell other brands of products, the competitors are the other alternate choices for discreationary spending that I mentioned earlier.  That make you an industry associate with a different choice.

[SerjicalStrike]

Easy now - if your tub ran no-bypass whenever the jets were turned on, it might be able to stay clean and safe with less (power consuming) circ pumps like HS...


 

The Sundance circ. pump uses around .2 amps more than the Laing circulation pump.  

The water going through the pumps should be clean enough since the body of water is being turned over 100 times per day.


If your pumps didn't have to run through the filter, they would stay powerful longer.

[spahappy]

I don't believe that information exists. �At your request, I did go back and look over an older post regarding this same issue. �I made the statement that our company (East Texas Spa) had only had to replace 8 jet pumps in 21 years. �Good ol' JMcD was astounded and even figured out our failure rate was about .002% or something like that. �Chas admitted he had replaced maybe 6 pumps in 20 years and Guzz had replaced about 2 in 9 years. �That ain't too shabby.




I agree that's exceptional. In all honesty I will tell you that in 20 years we have replaced more pumps than that.

Now don't set me in your sites for saying this. I personally know of two Hotsprings owners here that have replaced the pump in their spa. In both cases the spa was within the warranty period which is far less than 20 years. Also keep in mind that I live in a town that is only 16,000 people.

I beleive that overall poor water chemistry over a long period of time will take pumps and heaters out prematurely of any spa brand. Even a Hotsprings.
 

Do ya'll see the same type longevity with yours? �I hope so. �It's a shame when the customers' spas end up not lasting 20 years or more. �We (HS dealers) seem to have those in abundance. �I always imagined it was the 100% No-Bypass Filtration that had a lot to do with it, but it might be because of other factors. �I just don't know for sure.

Terminator

Yes we have old spas out as well. I would like to clarify that just because a pump or a heater needs to replaced after 10 or so years, there is no reason to assume that that spa will not last another 10 or so years.

Lets face it term, if any spa was that superior, we'd have all kinds of time to work on all those other brands. Because we wouldn't have to servicing our own 15 to 20 year old spas.

I have always thought that Hotsprings was a fine spa. Are they the best? who really knows!

I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I do get tired of the constant claims of superiority.

It's been said many times, if no bypass filtration were the very best way to do things why is Hotsprings the only company that does it.

[Steve]

I believe Chas and Term get an advertising kick back from HS...

Hey, as long as you guys believe it, that's all that matters right?

Anyway...I think it's move on time... (for me anyway)

Steve

[Steve]

Yes we have old spas out as well. I would like to clarify that just because a pump or a heater needs to replaced after 10 or so years, there is no reason to assume that that spa will not last another 10 or so years.

Lets face it term, if any spa was that superior, we'd have all kinds of time to work on all those other brands. Because we wouldn't have to servicing our own 15 to 20 year old spas.

I have always thought that Hotsprings was a fine spa. Are they the best? who really knows!

I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I do get tired of the constant claims of superiority.

It's been said many times, if no bypass filtration were the very best way to do things why is Hotsprings the only company that does it.

I believe most here feel the same and you just voiced it.

As for your last comment my dear, it all goes back to marketing. It's why they do it and that's OK.

Steve

[spahappy]

I can't. �I was just clarifying the details of the diagram. �I could never justify such a blanket statement. �Touchy???

No I'm not touchy. I'm actually using this debate to help get my game on for my upcoming weekend Home Show. This is great practice!

[J._McD]

.............There has to be a leader in every industry, or the 'standard' will prevail. �
 
Of course, as I have postulated before, since there are more HotSpring tubs out there than most other brands combined, it sort of make HS the 'standard.'
 
Also - did you fine folks know that HotSpring is the FIRST tub to be certified by the NSF? No, I'm not talking about the fact that Sundance claims to have the only NSF filter certified by the NSF - they don't, BTW HotSpring already has NSF certified filters - but HotSpring is the ONLY tub currently certified by the NSF for OVERALL spa safety and performance for the ENTIRE SPA.
 
Ha.
 (Did I say that?)

So you believe this too?  Did you have these certifications before the heater fires?  This is begining to show a passionate belief, are you trying to say there are no other leaders in this industry that have not contributed to the evolution and development of the products we use not to mention the acrylic shells that you sell today?  Sundance, D1, Marquis, combined production does not exceed HS?  This is not about number competition, this is about the "kool-aide" theory, imagination and what you have been taught to believe.

What happend to your "standard" with co-extruded ABS as you now have adapted so well to acrylic that HS sold against for 20 years.  

When will HS dealers take those blinders off and admit there are other very good alternate choices for the consumer, D1 for instance which originated from one of HS largets dealers in the '70's.  They make a nice Hot Tub don't they?

[shabba34]

Everybody drinks their own respective Kool-Aid if you ask me.  Isn't that the reason why you're all so passionate about the products that you sell?  It just so happens that the shear #'s of HS owners and dealers cause animosity in the industry.  And yes, JMcd I think D1 makes a fine product.

[East_TX_Spa]

JMcD, you go right ahead an keep taking your cutesy little digs at me.  I imagine everyone on here sees through them the same way I do.  I don't mind at all.  I'm surprised that there aren't more people on here that like to direct snide little remarks towards me as I often leave the door wide open for folks to do so.

BUT, you continue to obfuscate and skirt the issue by continually rehashing over and over and over ad nauseum about water care being the same.  Fine, we get it already, no argument here, done deal, no worries.

My only stance on this issue is plainly stated and I even drew a picture specifically for you.  I don't know what brand you sell, couldn't care less.  But, if you'd be so kind to answer this question in a succinct fashion, I would be grateful and be able to go to my reward with a joyful heart:

Is it better to filter all the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?  Yes or No

And if by some miracle of the Almighty you actually answer "No", then why on earth not?

Terminator (The Unkind to Orphans)

[East_TX_Spa]

It cracks me up how defensive everyone gets about their spas and they all sell against HotSpring.  It is like going up against the World Champs, day in and day out, year after year after year......

Again, for the record, I'm GLAD everyone does what they do.  I'm GLAD you sell what you believe in and stick with it, for the most part.  I'm dang sure glad we do what we do and so are our customers.  Are our spas perfect, nope, but they ain't too shabby.

16,000 Envoys sold last year.  Any other COMPANY sell that many spas?

I'd love to hear some figures.

Terminator