HELP!!! Breaker keeps popping... 2004 Sundance Altamar

[squale]

I have this spa hooked up inside my garage... first at the electrical panel I have a 60 amp non-gfi breaker.. then at the spa disconnect box is a 60 amp GFI breaker.  sometimes my hottub will run fine for a day, hours, etc. and then the breaker in the spa disconnect box trips.  I reset it.. sometimes it takes and the spa turns back on.. othertimes it just immediately trips the GFI breaker in the spa disconnect  box again.  The breaker in the main electrical panel NEVER TRIPS.

Now it's to the point that as soon as I reset the breaker in the spa disconnect box it IMMEDIATELY trips again as soon as the hottub tries to turn on... I just can't figure it out.. very annoying... where can I check for these issues?

I never changed any wiring, etc.. this problem just started happening intermediately last year.. and now this year it's MUCH WORSE and the breaker trips constantly!!!

Please help!!!

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Try unplugging the heater and see if it then stays rest. This is a very common sign of the heater going out.

[squale]

how do I unplug heater?

[squale]

btw... the hottub is inside my garage.  it has been sitting EMPTY for the last 4 months during the summer months because I don't use it.  Today I just filled it up and today is when the breaker just started kicking out immediately!!!

the filled water is only like 60 degrees F inside the tub right now.

[squale]

okay I opened up the electrical panel and I disconnected the RED and BLACK power wires going to the heater... tried turning it on.. same thing.. just blew the breaker again.

Something I DID find interesting however... on the back of the panel cover there is the electrical wiring diagram for the panel... well for the heater hookup.. the wires are on opposite what the panel says.. meaning the power wires are switched... where the panel diagram says to put the RED wire.. well the BLACK wire is attached there... I am AFRAID to change the red and black wires to the opposite terminals because I don't want to SHORT anything or fry anything when turning the spa on???  is this possible...?

one other thing to note is that last year sometime I changed the JUMPER SETTINGS on the control board so that I could turn the heater higher than the 104 degree F maximum setting.  I think by moving a jumper I am able to get the water to get as high as like 109 degree F or something like that..

well anyhow.. after I did this last year it was working no problems for months...

towards the end of last year before the summer when I drain the tub.. I was having some issues with the LCD showing FLO and OH for overheat.. this would then turn the spa off completely.  I don't know if that could all be related to the issues I am having now... could anybody shed some light on this for me?

Thank You.

[squale]

okay I tried everything I could... disconnecting the heater... no good...

switching the red and black heater power wires onto the panel... no good..

disconnecting the circulation pump... no good...

disconnecting the 'sensors' plug from the panel... no good...

disconnected the main power leads coming into the hottub.. in order to test my spa disconnect panel breaker... the breaker is fine... but as soon as the power is reconnected to the hot tub panel.. it throws the breaker right away..

so there must be something else that is causing the breaker to blow inside the panel or at one of the hot tub pumps, etc...

note however.. that last night when I FIRST FILLED the hottub with water.. I turned it on.. it turned on no problem.. I pup BOTH pump #1 and pump #2 on along with the air blower for bubbles.. everything was working just fine.. I put spa chemicals in... then I come downstairs about 15 minutes later and the tub is off... no power at the lcd display.

so then I checked the spa disconnect breaker box.. sure enough the breaker is tripped....  now I can't get that breaker to hold no matter what.. as soon as I throw it back to ON the breaker trips immediately... the LCD display on the spa will come on for like half a second.. then I hear a clicking noise inside the spa wiring panel.. then it turns right off and the breaker trips at the spa disconnect panel breaker.

so now I'm stuck.. don't know what else to test...

oh I even removed the filter inside the tub.. maybe thinking that the filter was blocking something... nope still did NOT work...

[JulieMor]

First of all I'm assuming you have a 240V (220V) connection.  (I've never heard of a 60A -120V connection for a spa)  If that's the case, your heaters are 240V.  There are (2) 120V wires that feed the heater making it 240V.  The heater coil doesn't care which wire is on what terminal, just as long as both wires (legs) are providing 120V.  Unless you're in Europe, both your red and black wires are 120V.  The white wire is a neutral and the green is a ground.

Heaters do not need a neutral but should have a ground if there's anything metal that's exposed to the touch, like a case.  240V motors are usually wired the same way.  120V motors require a hot, neutral and a ground for safety.

GFCI breakers are specially designed to sense current through water.  A standard breaker typically can't do that.  The breaker is looking for a power to ground leak.  If it senses that, it trips.  If a breaker trips too often, it breaks down.  Eventually the breaker can't be reset.  It sounds like your breaker is reaching that point.  I can't tell because I can't test the connections for amperage draw to see if it's an overload.

I'm worried you tampered with the safety limits without really knowing what you're doing.  The electrical wiring in the control box should never be tampered with unless you know how to read schematics and understand how everything works.  Only then are you able to decide what moving wires around will do.  I'd suggest you return your wiring to factory settings.

Replace the GFCI breaker and put the wiring back the way it was.  Let me know how that goes.  

[JulieMor]

PS: Breakers that need replacing can't be reset or are only reset with great care.  If the breaker handle gives little or no resistance when you try to reset it, replace it.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

GFCI breakers are specially designed to sense current through water.

This is not correct. GFCI's are designed to sense shorts much smaller (5 mili-amps),  and to shut off much faster, than a normal breaker. It makes NO difference where the short is.

[squale]

Okay so I guess I have a short..now where and how to find it... I have a volt meter and I'm good with electronics and wring..i just need to know where to look and test... I disconnected both hot leads to the heater and it still does the same tripping.

And my gfi siemens spa box and breaker are just fine and resets just perfectly so its something in the tub panel..motors..etc..

I just need to know what things to test and in what order to eliminate the correct parts

[tex912]

Dont know if this would help but I remember reading a post somewhere similar to yours and it turned out to be a leaking pump. Water was entering the pump case therefore tripping the breaker.  I think it was a bearing seal was bad or something like that. I haven't been able to find that post.

[squale]

I did notice a little water on the floor that seems to be coming out from the bottom inside of the spa... if you are looking at the spa from the front of the LCD... the water is coming from the rear right hand corner... since this is a fully insulated spa how do I go about checking into the pumps leaking?  aren't they encased in foam that needs to be ripped apart?

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

The heater is the most common cause of this. After the heater, the blower and/or ozonator would be the next suspect (try disconnecting each of them and resetting the breaker).

[JulieMor]

GFCI breakers are specially designed to sense current through water.

This is not correct. GFCI's are designed to sense shorts much smaller (5 mili-amps),  and to shut off much faster, than a normal breaker. It makes NO difference where the short is.

I know.  I was trying to explain things in layman's terms.  Water has impurities in it which act as high resistance conductors.  Typically, there's not enough impurities to create a direct short to ground.  But there is still a short and it can be enough to cause injury.  Thus the GFCI breaker.  It only takes .1 to .2 amps to cause ventricular fibrillation.

The guy with the seal problem said replacing the shaft seal fixed the problem.  Here's the link: http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php/topic,14551.msg164192.html#msg164192

I did notice a little water on the floor that seems to be coming out from the bottom inside of the spa... if you are looking at the spa from the front of the LCD... the water is coming from the rear right hand corner... since this is a fully insulated spa how do I go about checking into the pumps leaking?  aren't they encased in foam that needs to be ripped apart?

I just did that.  I had two major leaks in the hoses.  I found where the water was leaking out and followed it to the source.  The only problem is the foam was put in in layers, leaving some thin voids where water can flow.  Also, along the hoses there was a gap large enough to allow water to flow.  So I ran into a few false leads and had to change directions.  It was a pain but they are fixed now.  Look for spongy and discolored foam.

After everything was fixed and tested, I ordered a foam kit to fill in what I had removed.  All in all I think the leak repair cost me around $650, the foam being over $500 of that.

[squale]

are you saying the only way for me to get to the pumps is to break/cut away the foam?