Cal Spas, opinions on quality vs. price?

[dino]

The Cal SPas ridiculous wiring requirement forces one to pull four indivdual strands of #6 instead of using the pre-cablesheathed 3#6 and 1 #8 that everyone uses.  

The cost for the extra wire is as you point out only marginally more expensive - about $100.

BUT everywhere I know requires the indivdual strand solution to be encased in conduit as it runs through the house - a CONSIDERABLY more expensive installation both for material and mostly labor.

They know most will ignore it so they know most will have their warrantees voided.

Just so it is clear from where I speak - I have a BSEE and my father is a MSEE who has written many books on power supply design at both low and high votage-amperage situations.  Neither of us caan understand this requirement - Balboa who makes their controllers does not see the need and none of the other manufacturers who use Balboa have (to my knowledge) similar requirements.

[dino]

DO not claim that I have not taken thy lord and master up on his most gracious offer to help.  Speak only about what thou knowest for thyself oh righteous one.

At the time he made the offer I thanked him most graciously but having just paid many $ to get the problems fixed I do not currently have any issues and so did not see the need to take him up on the offer for simply a "feel good" check-up.

Please be assured however that the next time the tub breaks I will be sure to ask for a service call despite the 2000 mile trip charge that I would have to pay.  Or am I wrong is spaman to eat the trip charge?  Great - I will chip in dinner and a free room for the night and even drop him (You?) off at the airport.

Thanks for repeating the offer!!!!!

[dino]

What another Cal Spa dealer going bankrupt - I'm shocked.  

Why do they all go bankrupt?

[Mendocino101]

as a per roll price (500 ft) I think it is about 20.00 per roll. Number 6 is the safe and common answer but if your run is short enough than number 8 is fine and again within electrical code.

To clarify I am speaking about the cost difference between a roll of number 6 and a roll of number 8

[SpaMan]

What another Cal Spa dealer going bankrupt - I'm shocked. š

Why do they all go bankrupt?

ALL??? Gimme a break Dino!

[Wisoki]

I am certain you could have purchased your wire in "romex®" and placed it in conduit and would have been up to code. Romex is just the plastic sheath. None-the-less, price wise, as a DIYer, I'm sure you saved a few bucks. For the non DIYer, it will cost much more, unless labor is free in your area.

When I ran a 100 amp sub panel to our basement, I used (2) 4 awg copper THWN wires for the hot leads, a#6 neutral, and would have been allowed a #8 ground.  I opted to use a #6 ground, as the cost per foot wasn't much even for the length of the run, probably less than $10 extra.

I fed the spa from this sub panel.  My spa doesn't need a neutral, so I ran (2) 6 awg THWN hots, and a #8 ground.  I could have ran a #10, it was allowed per code, but I opted for the #8.  The cost difference was only a few bucks in this case.  Had I needed a neutral, I would have been allowed to run a #8.  

But in both instances I was allowed to go one size smaller for the neutral, and two sizes smaller for the ground.  

This job was inspected and approved by our state board of electricity.

In my area we're not allowed to feed a spa with romex, becase the ground isn't insulated.  Sizewise it'd be okay.

NEC allows downsizing neutrals and grounds in some instances, but local rules can override.

[SpaMan]

The Cal SPas ridiculous wiring requirement forces one to pull four indivdual strands of #6 instead of using the pre-cablesheathed 3#6 and 1 #8 that everyone uses. š

The cost for the extra wire is as you point out only marginally more expensive - about $100.

BUT everywhere I know requires the indivdual strand solution to be encased in conduit as it runs through the house - a CONSIDERABLY more expensive installation both for material and mostly labor.

They know most will ignore it so they know most will have their warrantees voided.

Just so it is clear from where I speak - I have a BSEE and my father is a MSEE who has written many books on power supply design at both low and high votage-amperage situations. šNeither of us caan understand this requirement - Balboa who makes their controllers does not see the need and none of the other manufacturers who use Balboa have (to my knowledge) similar requirements.

[SpaMan]

The Cal SPas ridiculous wiring requirement forces one to pull four indivdual strands of #6 instead of using the pre-cablesheathed 3#6 and 1 #8 that everyone uses. š

The cost for the extra wire is as you point out only marginally more expensive - about $100.

BUT everywhere I know requires the indivdual strand solution to be encased in conduit as it runs through the house - a CONSIDERABLY more expensive installation both for material and mostly labor.

They know most will ignore it so they know most will have their warrantees voided.

Just so it is clear from where I speak - I have a BSEE and my father is a MSEE who has written many books on power supply design at both low and high votage-amperage situations. šNeither of us caan understand this requirement - Balboa who makes their controllers does not see the need and none of the other manufacturers who use Balboa have (to my knowledge) similar requirements.

The cost is very minimal between #8 guage and #6 I know Coleman asks for #6 and Hotspring recommends the same size wire as the conductor.

Heres a sample of their recommendation.

Electrical Requirements
To ensure that you will have an opportunity to use your spa soon after delivery, it is very important that the required electrical service has been installed. Unless otherwise stipulated by your dealer, This Is Your Responsibility.

Important! All electrical circuits must be installed by a qualified, licensed contractor.

Hot Spring Spas are manufactured in two different electrical versions. The Vista, Grandee, Envoy, Vanguard, & Sovereign models are available with a 230 volt continuous heating system. these spas cannot be converted to 115 volt operation.
The remaining spa models, the Sovereign Endurol, Prodigy, Jetsetter, are available as 115/230 volt convertible heating systems; however, with the addition of a subpanel and control box wiring change, they can be converted to 230 volt operation.

115 Volt Operation Requirements
The 115 volt spa requires a dedicated 20 amp, 115 volt circuit. This circuit must be properly wired; that is, it must have a 20 amp GFCI breaker in the main electrical service panel, and a #12 AWG wire (including ground wire) and the correct polarity throughout the circuit.

WIRE SPECIFICATION NOTE: Long electrical runs may require a larger gauge feed wire than stated. We recommend that a maximum voltage drop of 3% be used when calculation the larger wire size.

NOTE: the term "dedicated" means that only the spa is operating on the circuit.

Each 115 volt model comes equipped with approximately 15 feet of usable power cord. (This is the maximum allowed by the Underwriters Laboratory.) When the spa is installed, the power cord (on the redwood skirt models) will come out of the bottom of the equipment compartment. On the Classic® model, the power cord should be removed from the equipment compartment and brought out under the spa skirt (directly below the equipment compartment door) prior leveling and filling the spa with water.

In addition to the dedicated 20 amp, 115 volt GFCI protected circuit, your spa requires a 20 amp single receptacle. This receptacle, which contains an outdoor-rated, weather-resistant receptacle cover plate, will be provided to you at the time of sale. The single receptacle and cover plate should be installed by your electrician prior to delivery of your spa. See the Pre Delivery book for further details.

WARNINGS: Do not connect the spa to an extension cord.
The 115 volt GFCI switch and receptacle must be protected from weather and landscape sprinklers—they should never get wet.

220 Volt Operation Requirements
NOTE: we recommend that a sub panel be used to supply and protect the spa. The permanently wired 230V models come with a sub panel containing GFCI breakers. On the convertible models, a subpanel with GFCI breakers must be purchased separately.

All 230 volt Hot Spring® Spas must be wired in accordance with applicable local electrical codes, and all electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician.

A licensed electrician should install a four wire electrical service (two line voltages, one neutral, one ground) from the main electrical panel to the subpanel.

The grounding conductor must be the same gauge as the line conductor, but at least #8 AWG. your electrician should mount the subpanel in the vicinity of the spa, but it should not be closer than five feet from the spa water edge (NEC 680-c)

INSTALLATION NOTE: After the spa has been installed by the dealer's delivery crew, your electrician and connect from the subpanel to the spa's IQ 2000 Control Box and then complete the wiring connections in the control box.

For wiring diagrams, contact us and we'll be glad to get them to you.

Back to Preparing for Your New Spa

[Wisoki]

        Man am I confused, I thought this was about Cal Spas.

The cost is very minimal between #8 guage and #6 I know Coleman asks for #6 and Hotspring recommends the same size wire as the conductor.

Heres a sample of their recommendation.

Electrical Requirements
To ensure that you will have an opportunity to use your spa soon after delivery, it is very important that the required electrical service has been installed. Unless otherwise stipulated by your dealer, This Is Your Responsibility.

Important! All electrical circuits must be installed by a qualified, licensed contractor.

 Hot Spring Spas are manufactured in two different electrical versions. The Vista, Grandee, Envoy, Vanguard, & Sovereign models are available with a 230 volt continuous heating system. these spas cannot be converted to 115 volt operation.
The remaining spa models, the Sovereign Endurol, Prodigy, Jetsetter, are available as 115/230 volt convertible heating systems; however, with the addition of a subpanel and control box wiring change, they can be converted to 230 volt operation.
 
115 Volt Operation Requirements
The 115 volt spa requires a dedicated 20 amp, 115 volt circuit. This circuit must be properly wired; that is, it must have a 20 amp GFCI breaker in the main electrical service panel, and a #12 AWG wire (including ground wire) and the correct polarity throughout the circuit.

WIRE SPECIFICATION NOTE: Long electrical runs may require a larger gauge feed wire than stated. We recommend that a maximum voltage drop of 3% be used when calculation the larger wire size.

NOTE: the term "dedicated" means that only the spa is operating on the circuit.

Each 115 volt model comes equipped with approximately 15 feet of usable power cord. (This is the maximum allowed by the Underwriters Laboratory.) When the spa is installed, the power cord (on the redwood skirt models) will come out of the bottom of the equipment compartment. On the Classic® model, the power cord should be removed from the equipment compartment and brought out under the spa skirt (directly below the equipment compartment door) prior leveling and filling the spa with water.

In addition to the dedicated 20 amp, 115 volt GFCI protected circuit, your spa requires a 20 amp single receptacle. This receptacle, which contains an outdoor-rated, weather-resistant receptacle cover plate, will be provided to you at the time of sale. The single receptacle and cover plate should be installed by your electrician prior to delivery of your spa. See the Pre Delivery book for further details.

WARNINGS: Do not connect the spa to an extension cord.
The 115 volt GFCI switch and receptacle must be protected from weather and landscape sprinklers—they should never get wet.
 
220 Volt Operation Requirements
NOTE: we recommend that a sub panel be used to supply and protect the spa. The permanently wired 230V models come with a sub panel containing GFCI breakers. On the convertible models, a subpanel with GFCI breakers must be purchased separately.

All 230 volt Hot Spring® Spas must be wired in accordance with applicable local electrical codes, and all electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician.

A licensed electrician should install a four wire electrical service (two line voltages, one neutral, one ground) from the main electrical panel to the subpanel.

The grounding conductor must be the same gauge as the line conductor, but at least #8 AWG. your electrician should mount the subpanel in the vicinity of the spa, but it should not be closer than five feet from the spa water edge (NEC 680-c)

INSTALLATION NOTE: After the spa has been installed by the dealer's delivery crew, your electrician and connect from the subpanel to the spa's IQ 2000 Control Box and then complete the wiring connections in the control box.

For wiring diagrams, contact us and we'll be glad to get them to you.

Back to Preparing for Your New Spa

[SpaMan]

Yes it is however other brands ask for the same wiring is my point, so its not all that rediculous as Dino put it.

Also romex is not to be used in outdoor applications inspectors will red flag its use.

[dino]

Crusader - perhaps you should forsake your quest and return to school and learn to read!

You will note in my original response to you that I discussed only the indoor portion of the run and therefore only that portion involved incremental cost for conduit.

Of course all outdoor portions of the run must be conduit (or other outdoor approved cable.

You still never address the issue - all you do is cut and paste from a non-cal spa manual.  Do you not agree that the necessesity to use conduit indoors (a resultant fact from the #6 ground requirement) involves considerably more labor?

[rdeditor]

In 1994 I was living in Montana and bought a CalSpa against the recommendation of a friend. Within the warranty period the heater was replaced twice but I had to pay for the repair people to make the trip out. It developed several leaks and each time I had to pay for a repair person to come out. After having the spa for 5 years the heater had been replaced another time we had problems with the shell bubbling, and when we finally sold the house the spa didn't work any more and the dealer said it needed to be completely rebuild, new pump, heater, the works. I don't know the model but know of several other people in cold weather climates who have had similar experiences.
Last year my sister in law and her husband bought a Cal Spa, against my recommendation and they are starting to have problems already. They live in the mountains outside of Los Angeles and 3 times now in the year that they've had the spa they've come out in the morning for a soak and it's been cold as a dead body. Run away from Cal Spas, don't hide.