Dumping the spa frog bromine--Any opinions on the Eco One line of chemicals?

[Kaisermust]

Just can't get the water chemistry right with brand new spa  (green tint water which is now aqua, the right level of bromine 2 days ago to nothing today, tons of pH down to get acceptable TA level, hardness increaser to get hardness up to within range, spa shock and stain and scale at fill and now again).  But can't seem to get bromine to stay and clear the tint from the water.  So two dealers today, after testing the water (now including my own dealer) have suggested that we drain and refill and start from scratch--one said he tells all his new spa purchasers to do this--washes away algae which may be in the spa lines from the facotry/setting in stock, etc.)  And my dealer now says to  ditch the bromine cartridge on the spa frog built-in system,  but leave mineral cartridge in and use chlorine instead of bromine.  Was looking online at the Eco One system of chemicals.  Any opinions on these?  Simple to use?  No skin issues (itchiness, rashes, bumps, etc.)?  I'm also open to other ways to take care of the spa.  Our Caldera tub is only 225 gals, used daily by only two people, using an built-in ozonator.  I bought Eco One spa flush which I'll use before draining tub and I have an Eco One pre-filter for the hose which I used to initially fill the tub.  So any suggestions as to a simple system to get and KEEP levels would be appreciated.  Oh, and if I change to another system should I also get rid of the spa frog mineral cartridge (our water does have some iron in it) 

[Jacuzzi Jim]

Can't help you with Eco one chems, but your problem is not algae in the lines.    I would go with the mineral cartridge,chlorine and a non chlorinated shock.   Add a metal gone product while filling and don't add any sanitizer for a few days in the mean time get your alk/ph in check. I wouldn't even add any calcium yet. 

 FYI some mineral cartridges are designed to work with bromine and some with chlorine, I think the spa frog one is bromine only, maybe some others will chime in on this.

[d00nut]

Can't help you with Eco one chems, but your problem is not algae in the lines.    I would go with the mineral cartridge,chlorine and a non chlorinated shock.   Add a metal gone product while filling and don't add any sanitizer for a few days in the mean time get your alk/ph in check. I wouldn't even add any calcium yet. 

 FYI some mineral cartridges are designed to work with bromine and some with chlorine, I think the spa frog one is bromine only, maybe some others will chime in on this.

I'm with Jacuzzi Jim here.  Using the Monarch Silver Cartridge would work with dichlor chlorine and shock.

Just an opinion, I'm not a fan of ECO One or any natural enzyme based sanitation.  I tried using the Spa Monthly here in a J-355, and for the life of me, couldn't figure it out.  Turned cloudy in a day and smelt odd.  After a week I dumped it and never looked back.

[Kaisermust]

Jacuzzi Jim,

So you think I should hold off on dumping for the moment?  In short, here is what I have done with the spa since the beginning.  Filled with our well water using a pre-filter which we presume took much of the iron out (it was trickling into the tub in the end so the pre-filter was taking stuff out).  On dealers advice added stain & scale after filling then ran clean cycle.  Let heat up overnight.  Calcium level pre-spa purchase was 100ppm so not very hard.  Alkalinity though was 400ppm+, off the test strip chart.  Kept hitting it with pH down (took about 6-7 times (lost track over the days this week) only til we got alkalinity at least in high acceptable test strip range.  Spa frog had bromine cart set at 4 and mineral cart set at 6 max.  Bromine was negligible.  So dealer said to: hit again with 2 ozs pH down, run clean cycle, wait 20 mins then hit with 6 oz calcium, wait 20 mins then add 2 oz shock (all Spa Pure products) then wait 20 mins.  Did all these things then took water to dealer again that afternoon and tested.  Everything improved: bromine 3.4ppm, pH 7.2ppm, hardness 140ppm and TA 157ppm.  Water clear but now tinted light aqua.  Took water samples today and bromine is negligible again and pH is 7.8 again.  Now dealer says to dump and refill and replace bromine cart with chlorine.  I'm so confused--I never dreamed owning a spa would be so complicated.  We only used twice--the night the readings were good and last night.  Not sure to soak tonight or dump and refill thid weekend.

[d00nut]

Jacuzzi Jim,

So you think I should hold off on dumping for the moment?  In short, here is what I have done with the spa since the beginning.  Filled with our well water using a pre-filter which we presume took much of the iron out (it was trickling into the tub in the end so the pre-filter was taking stuff out).  On dealers advice added stain & scale after filling then ran clean cycle.  Let heat up overnight.  Calcium level pre-spa purchase was 100ppm so not very hard.  Alkalinity though was 400ppm+, off the test strip chart.  Kept hitting it with pH down (took about 6-7 times (lost track over the days this week) only til we got alkalinity at least in high acceptable test strip range.  Spa frog had bromine cart set at 4 and mineral cart set at 6 max.  Bromine was negligible.  So dealer said to: hit again with 2 ozs pH down, run clean cycle, wait 20 mins then hit with 6 oz calcium, wait 20 mins then add 2 oz shock (all Spa Pure products) then wait 20 mins.  Did all these things then took water to dealer again that afternoon and tested.  Everything improved: bromine 3.4ppm, pH 7.2ppm, hardness 140ppm and TA 157ppm.  Water clear but now tinted light aqua.  Took water samples today and bromine is negligible again and pH is 7.8 again.  Now dealer says to dump and refill and replace bromine cart with chlorine.  I'm so confused--I never dreamed owning a spa would be so complicated.  We only used twice--the night the readings were good and last night.  Not sure to soak tonight or dump and refill thid weekend.

If you change systems from Bromine to Chlorine, you have to dump it.  You cannot mix the two.  If you stick with Bromine, there really is no need to dump it.  The green tint could be the copper in your water.  Does your pre-filter specifically list copper as one of the metals taken out?  If not, use metal gone.  Also, don't be afraid to use a lot of pH/Alk down.  That stuff is dirt cheap.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

You don't have algae. The water would NOT be clear if you did (algae causes cloudiness). The pre filter will ONLY filter out solid matter. Anything dissolved in the water, such as metals, is in liquid form and will NOT be filtered out (this includes iron).

Simply adding the bromine cartridge will NOT give you an initial bank of bromine. As such, you wont get any proper bromine reading for weeks.

The flush you have is a waste on a new spa. It's intended to clean out mineral deposits that develop after years of use.

You're greenness is being caused by dissolved metals in the water, and the bromine oxidizing them. YOU NEED TO TREAR THESE METALS FIRST. Any halogen added to the water will cause this...chlorine, non-chlorine shock or bromine.

The beginning instructions for eco one read;
"Use with a regular application of a non-chlorine shock in conjunction with a minimum recommended amount of a sanitizer such as ozone, ionizers, dichlor, chlorine or bromine Eco One is not a sanitizer or an EPA registered pesticide."

[Bonibelle]

I have the spa frog in my Marquis tub and it took me quite a while to get it right..(I'm a slow learner). but I really do like it and it works great for times like now when the tub is not being used often because of the hot weather.

I also have well water and I use the filter on the hose. Like Doc said, that is only effective in removing large particles and the dissolved minerals pass right through. When you mess with the ph and such, remaining minerals and metals can be more visibly  evident in the water. I believe the green color may be from copper.  In any case, I use a procedure from my dealer and I have great luck with it. I don't want to tell it to you from memory in case I miss something. Its important to follow it step by step. I will post it for you tomorrow.  Before you throw out those expensive frog cartridges, try Bromine 101 from my dealer. 

[Kaisermust]

Bonibelle,

OK--I'll hold off changing my aqua colored water. Since you wrote I made another trip to my dealer today, bringing a fresh sample of my water along.  It now tests high for pH at 8, bromine is .3ppm, hardness is 170ppm and total alkalinity is 100ppm.  Dealer says to do 3 things now:  (1) ad 1 oz pH down, run clean cycle for 10 mins., wait 20 mins, then (2) add 2 oz. calcium increaser, run clean cycle, then wait 20 mins and then (3) add 1 oz. crystal shock, run clean cycle, wait 20 mins and then I can add what I went down there to get this afternoon, the mineral gone which is Spa Pure's Natural Clear (they carry spa pure line of chemicals) so I can add tonight and in the AM rinse filter and add another 1 oz Natural Clear which will stay in the tub to clear up my light aqua colored water.  Would like to hear what you're routine is tomorrow when you get an opportunity to jot down all the steps.  In the meantime, if Jacuzzi Man or others have further suggestions chime in.  I really do think my water is not bad--it's crystal clear but tinted, it doesn't smell (chemically or otherwise), it feels OK on our skin, etc. but what do we know.  It's our first spa and we've only used it two times.  Planning on going for a soak tonight before adding 1,2,3 and 4 above.  For those of you who suggested the water is tinted from minerals, should the water be colorless tomorrow if I put in Natural Clear (Mineral Gon) tonight?  BTW, thanks all for all of your suggestions and advice.  I'm learning a lot, but sometimes don't know what is the right thing to do.

[Bonibelle]

Sorry this took so long. I keep this in my spa cabinet in a plastic jacket..but it looks like when my kids tried to clean all the darn stinkbugs out, Bromine 101 must have gone too..I had to find another copy.  In any case, this should help. I had many of the same problems that you have and I remember being so frustrated. That is why you see that little spa frog sitting with my husband and me in my avatar! I wanted to ditch the frog too. So try to clear your water up, if possible. Then the next time you start up, follow this. I am still using the frog after 6 years! It is easy once you are used to it. I left my spa last summer for 18 days, relying only on the spa frog and when I returned home, my tub was still nice and clear.


Bromine Water Chemistry 101
Start Up:
Add 1 oz. of Stain And Scale Control while filling.
Fill tub with fresh water to about an inch below the top of the vortex skimmer lid and run
for about 30 minutes. (my tub is 450 gallons,so you may need less, but if you are still seeing the green, maybe you should add this much)
Test water using test strips as per directions on the side of test strip bottle. The test strips
will suggest ideal ranges for pH and TOTAL ALKALINITY.
Always adjust TA first, then pH if necessary Dosage guidelines are on charts on the back of the chemical
containers.

After adjusting TA and pH, add Enhanced Spa Shock 1 TBSP per 100 gallons.
Next adjust the Frog Mineral Cartridge setting to 6 and install cartridge into the inline
feeder. Allow water temperature to reach set point (it will take 6 to 24 hours). Next
adjust the bromine cartridge setting to 2 and place into the in-line feeder. Monitor
the Bromine level over the next week adjusting the setting accordingly to maintain a 3-5
ppm Bromine residual on your test strip. ( I usually add some bromine to get things where they belong).
Calcium Hardness should be in the range of 100- 150 ppm. Adjusting CH anytime
within the first couple of days is fine. Figure your total dosage and add to your water 50%
at a time a couple of hours apart.
Weekly:
Test water using Aquacheck Bromine test strips several times a week and adjust
accordingly.
*Shock with 1 level TBSP per 100 gallons of Enhanced Spa Shock
Every 4 months drain and refill tub and replace Frog Mineral Cartridge. If you
drain and refill prior to the four-month life of the cartridge, you still have the remaining
time left to use the cartridge.
You should check your  cartridge every couple of weeks and replace when
needed. (Usually every 3 to 4 weeks)

[Bonibelle]

Do you have a water softener or neutralizing tank .?