Beachcomber versus Hot Spring - need input on tough decision

[spudboss]

First, thanks to all of you have contributed to making this forum one of the best sources for hot tub info on the net.  I am in the market for my first hot tub.  Was hoping to be in the $5-7k range, but after many hours of research and checking out the local shops, I have concluded that it is going to cost about $11k including electrical work to get what I want unless I luck out and find a great deal on a used spa.  Unfortunately there seems to be much less selection in used here than in some more populated US states, and lack of transferable warranty is also a concern with used.

Reputable dealers in our small Canadian city (population approx 80k) are D1 and Beachcomber.  Both are friendly, but the Beachcomber dealer has been excellent.  We have two Hot Spring dealers each located in different neighboring cities approx 2 hours drive away.  I have a relative who sold Hot Spring spas up until a couple years ago when the business was sold.  He has toured the HS factory and believes HS quality is superior to any other mfg including Beachcomber.  I have wet tested a 2011 Beachcomber 720X as well as 2-3 year old Hot Spring Sovereign and Grandee. I love the dual Moto Message DX on the Grandee, but didn't appreciate the older single Moto Message on the Sovereign nearly as much.  Found I need one jet on each side of my backbone (DX).  2007 Sovereign jet pressure was also too weak with a single small pump.  I also am very interested in the ACE Salt Water option offerred by Hot Spring (which is not yet available in Canada).  I hate chlorine and even bromine smell and I have a child with psoriasis and therefore figured salt may be a good option to have.  Beachcomber appears to me to be more solid and purposefully lacks some bells and whistles such as the head rests which apparently can need occasional replacing and have sanitary issues.  Beachcomber will also increase the size of the pump to provide more jet power which is highly desirable to me.  Beachcomber dealer does NOT recommend salt water systems period.  A new Grandee is out of my price range, but I have an opportunity to purchase one used one approx 3 years old with a repaired cracked shell (private sale) for $4k.  This one is too old to support the ACE system.  Dealer says he's seen a couple other Grandee's with cracked shells.  I was told HS does not recommend people sit on the side of the spa.  Sounds absolutely ridiculous to me since the side should be the best supported area of the spa shell.  Beachcomber dealer says he's never seen a cracked Beachcomber shell in nearly 20 years of selling them.  I found a few other posts that stated Hot Spring spas are great in warm climate, but they do not standup well in cold Canadian like winters (failed pumps, cracked shell, etc).  No doubt Hot Spring would deny this, but it does seem like a trend on the forums.  So, my choices appear to be new Beachcomber 720X loaded with stereo and iPod dock or Hot Spring Vanguard with no sound each for approx 10k plus electrical or the used Grandee with the repaired cracked shell and no sound for $4k (no warranty obviously).  I might check D1 once more, but nothing they had jumped out at me.

I would appreciate input on the following:

1) Are Hot Springs spas are well suited to extreme cold?  If so, why so many horror stories on the forums?

2) Is it worth risking Hot Spring when the dealer would charge mileage for a 2 hour drive to service when the Beachcomber dealer is local just to get the Moto Message DX jet system and ACE salt water options?

3) Can Hot Spring spa pumps be upgraded for more jet power like Beachcomber?

4) Is risk of pump freezing in ext power outage higher with Beachcomber hybrid (X) model?

5) Is ACE salt water system really worthwhile for the price?  Would there be any advantage for psoriasis or simply less water maintenance to perform?

6) Which has highest jet pressure - Hot Spring Vanguard or Beachcomber 720X? (I have only we tested Sovereign which had poor jet pressure and Grandee which was Ok - have not tried the Vanguard)

Thanks in advance for your input!

[Spatech_tuo]

You're certainly getting information overload IMO because some of the things you're being told are crazy. The idea that someone is telling you that you can't sit on the side of one brand is salesmanship. As you note, that’s where the most support is. The fact one dealer says he ""does NOT recommend salt water systems period" might just have something to do with him selling against the competition that has it. The idea that cold has anything to do with a failed pump or a shell crack is off base too, those are not weather related.

Don't get caught up in what they have to say about each other. Decide which is best for you, both brands are reputable.


As far as your list of questions goes:

1) I haven't seen horror stories for them related to weather. They are very well suited for cold weather.

2) You need to have the dealer put in writing what the travel cost would be for service (each dealer, whether 5 miles away or 80).

3) I doubt that’s an option and not something you typically see. Let the wet tests tell you if the jets are sufficient. If the jets feel right to you then adding more horsepower may do little more than add to the power consumption.

4) It depends on how long you're without power probably but unless you're in an area where that is a major concern or the spa is at a cabin I wouldn't worry too much about that.

5) "Worth the price" is all about what’s its worth to you.

6) You should wet test what you're considering.

[ejf The Spa Guy]

as for your questions some of them are great salesman spins,,,,,I would not get caught up with some of that hype,as for the Hot Springs being far superior than others . Since your relative went to the factory. Don't get me wrong Hot Springs makes a great product jsut like D1, Sundance , Jacuzzi, just to name a few,,, BUt as going through a factory a saying they are superior ...I have been through many factories myself, most have been very clean,organized, and busy, some i have been to a dressed up to make them have the appeal as the best,,, The last factory i went through was D1's and i was impressed, And as a note they are right next to the Hot Springs factory,,, Both companies must be doiing something right still after being in busines longer than 30 years...30 years of business.

But as to your questions
1)I belong to multiple forums as well as spatech, I do not see the horror stories you talk of, especially mutiple shells cracking and not sitting on the edge, some salesman will use that specifically on any brand that does not have a flat lip to even sit on, but on most spas there is a lot of support there. AS for cold weather thats another good one, I suppose because up in Canada you get really cold like the Eastern Washington, and because there are companies up there making spas saying they are better for the cold... In Canada i believe one of the better manufacturers for that is H20 spas....

2)right now especially with the cost of gas most companies in any industry are tryting to make it work, either building extra cost into the original sale to cover the cost of service trips,, But for 2 hours away there should be a trip charge, thats actually a 4-6 hour trip for service,,, In our area we do not charge any trip charge up to 50 miles away , but out lying area we need to.. unfortunatly.
   But on the second part i think your getting a whole lot more differance then you state, Both companies are very good, some people like the Ace system (salt System) but the salt turns to chlorine....The Moto message is a nice feature that moves the therapy of the jets up annd down the back,,,other companies other have something similiar. Like some D1's have the Dynamic Massage seat,, multiple jets that go from the neck to the feet with 6 programmed massge movements....

3) Upgrading the pumps on the Hot Springs i doubt their is that option and i really see no need for a spa manufacturer to offer, Most spas are designed specifically with there hydraulic system, , most have diverter valves to move the water to different seats and more or less power, Why does Beachcomber offer this, do they see a void there so they make it an option? Just a question to think of. You can only get so much volume( of g.p.ms water through the same jet, the H.p of the pump is not going to change that much.

4.) would say the Hot Springs, D1, Sundance Jacuzzi, H20 will go longer in the event of outage, just my opinion, but being foam insulated or Roxul insulated they will go longer the thermal chamber system, i have seen it happens, not saying in 2-3 days of outage both will hold up, but we are talking weeks ,,, but in most places that does not happen very often... your local dealer would have a better feel for that ,,,,

5.) as i have always stated i am not a fan of bromine generator, salt generators either, i have experience with both, there are great spas with great water managemnt systems and do not nee the generator and also chemicals that are not harsh on the body, But i will say that Hot Springs has probably has done the best with the system , but give it 2-3 years on the market and see how they are...

6.) pressure will very on all brands of spas ,, bnut i am suprised on your comments on power , did you adjust their diverter valves,,,,But remember you do not necessarily need somuch power that it pushes you out of the seat,,, that actually adds more stress to the body, you might have to brace yourself with your feat onsome spas. isn't that defeating the purpose of the relaxation form the tub....
good luck on the hunt for your perfect spa for you.....

[VTXMAN]

You're certainly getting information overload IMO because some of the things you're being told are crazy. The idea that someone is telling you that you can't sit on the side of one brand is salesmanship. As you note, that’s where the most support is. The fact one dealer says he ""does NOT recommend salt water systems period" might just have something to do with him selling against the competition that has it. The idea that cold has anything to do with a failed pump or a shell crack is off base too, those are not weather related.

Several manufactures do not recommend salt systems but I see your point. Always good to read the manufactures warranty and no believe everything a sales guy says.

Weather does play into the equation on cracked shells but it is typically hot direct heat not cold. Also cold can affect pumps, if the spa is running nothing to worry about but is drained and you live in a very cold climate the grease on bearings will/can solidify and cause premature bearing wear.

[spudboss]

Thanks for the quick feedback!  Regarding the horror stories of the Hot Springs, here's a sample link to some very mixed reviews and a couple specifically mention cold climate issues:

http://www.epinions.com/reviews/Hot_Spring_Grandee_Spa/sec_~opinion_list/pp_~1/pa_~1#list

Excerpt:

A Huge Mistake
by zax031 ,Aug 09 '04

Pros: It is a better looking than most spas
Cons: These things aren't meant to be in cold climates, they just don't hold up

The leaks, shorts, crack, and other problems you will experience with this spa far outweigh the enjoyment you will receive. Hot Spring will give you five years warranty, but after that it is a money pit. This will be one of your biggest regrets because you will have sunk costs and nothing but endless repair bills.

Two separate Hot Springs dealer's told me that Hot Spring does not recommend sitting on the side of the spa.  One dealer told me that they have had at least 3 cracked shell's on Grandee's in the past 3 years.

A distant Beachcomber dealer (not the nice local guy) did some HS bashing saying Hot Spring uses a wood base, has shallow foot wells, limited foot message, lots of diverters and 3 to 5 filters to maintain and replace, 31% higher cost to run according to California State Polytechnic University independent lab study.  I really didn't appreciate this.

I'll check out D1's Dynamic Message too, however, I prefer the open seating and D1 tends to have high sides on the seats, etc.

Of course I realize one needs to take all of the internet and sales propaganda with a grain of salt.  Ultimately Hot Spring, Beachcomber, and D1 all make great spas and I need to figure out what one is best for my family. 

Would anyone like to comment on the $4k used Grandee with repaired cracked shell option?  That is the only problem it has.  The crack is in the corner and mostly above the water line although I believe it does extend down to just below the water line.  The guy who repaired it guarantees his work and says he's had great success with repairing shells.

[Spatech_tuo]

Now you got me wondering about the reviews which I don't typically follow but I did check out that link and saw that it had 39 reviews with 21 of five stars and 10 of one stars. Not exactly a lot of agreement.

I searched for the Beachcomber 720x but it had only 2 reviews, 1 five star and 1 one star.
http://www99.epinions.com/reviews/Beachcomber_720X_Hot_Tub

I then entered "Sundance Optima" knowing its a big seller in the industry and indeed saw 24 reviews with 11 being five stars and 5 being one star. http://www99.epinions.com/reviews/Sundance_Optima_Hot_Tub/sec_~opinion_list/pp_~1/sort_~date/sort_dir_~des/pa_~1#list

What does all that mean? Maybe that site is where people go when they're not happy?! In the end I know those models don't get that large of a % of unhappy campers.

As far as that comment about "California State Polytechnic University independent lab study". I  think its tied to that State of California, California Energy Commission (CEC) report so let me say a few things. First of all the data there is self reported so I don't buy into it because I know some companies fudged big time but I'm sure some were real. I know beachcomber and Hot Springs are well insulated and for the heck of it I looked to compare the 720x and the Grandee and found that the standby Watts for them respectively are 201 and 202. Not exactly a 31% difference lol. If those two companies reported real data (who knows) they they're saying its a tie.

http://www.appliances.energy.ca.gov/SearchResults.aspx


To your questions, in general I typically say drop 40% for the first year, 10% the second year and 5$ per year thereafter for used spas so a 3 year old spa should sell for about 45% or so of its original price so $4k for a 3 year old Grandee sounds fine because I'll bet they paid 10k or more for it based on posts on this site. BUT as with ALL used spas, condition is everything. If the crack was fixed properly then it really should be fine but that’s a chance you'd be taking but I’ve seen good crack repair where you can't tell where it was and it outlasts the life of the spa but i can't tell from my keyboard how they did it.

[spudboss]

Hey Spatech_tuo:

You're probably right - only spa owners with very strong opinions are posting on the epinions site.  Using the 80/20 rule, these folks must be the 20% that either really love or really hate their spa.  Presumably the other 80% don't bother posting reviews.

I appreciate your comments on the CEC report, and that link was very useful.  Thanks also for the thoughts on the used Grandee.  The crack repair is definately very visible in this case.  I really don't care so much about that as I do about how well it'll hold in the long term.

I am hoping to have a 2nd wet test in the Grandee and perhaps a first one in the Vanguard this weekend.

[gadfly]

... The crack repair is definately very visible in this case.  I really don't care so much about that as I do about how well it'll hold in the long term...

Shouldn't this spa still be under warranty?  Wouldn't HotSpring have either replaced it, or at least required the repair be seamless?  When was the repair done?  If it was two years ago, and it you trust the source that it has not leaked since... I might consider it if the price was too low to pass up.  If it was two months ago, I would not consider it.  IMO, $4000 with a cracked shell, is not a bargain. 

[Spatech_tuo]

Thanks also for the thoughts on the used Grandee.  The crack repair is definately very visible in this case.  I really don't care so much about that as I do about how well it'll hold in the long term.

How visible the repair is isn't really an indicator of how well the repair is really. If you have the textured finish you can hide it pretty well if you're artistic enough but on non-textured and some colors its not so easy. What you really caer about is will it hold but if you're still interested act concerned, use that issue to negotiate a better price if you're interested in that spa.

[spudboss]

I'll need to dive deeper into the cracked shell issue.  Another Hot Spring "feature" that I am not so excited about is having to clean and replace 5 filters at $65 dollars each every year or two. 

http://www.rhtubs.com/cgi-bin/bbs/config1.pl?md=read;id=92746

Apparently there is truth to what the Beachcomber shop said!  Looks like I'm going to have to want the Moto Message DX really bad to be willing to accept no local service, too many reports of cracked shells, much higher cost of filters, as well as a few other reported features that I have not yet confirmed including "wood base".  Starting to think I should have just "impulse bought" based on which one looked nicest like many people do.  Sure would have saved myself a lot of time!

[Spatech_tuo]

I'll need to dive deeper into the cracked shell issue.  Another Hot Spring "feature" that I am not so excited about is having to clean and replace 5 filters at $65 dollars each every year or two. 

Yearly? You cerainly don't need to replace filters yearly. Paper filters I'd say every 2 to 3 years, a bit longer with good care and good luck. The hard fitlers Hot Springs uses are supposed to last longer but I'd ask the dealer how long they recommend though answers will certainly vary. I'm not sure if that $65/filter is for the paper ones or the hard ones.

Anyone saying filters should be changed yearly is someone trying to sell you filters.

[spudboss]

I would think every 2 or 3 years would be sufficient.  Regardless of the frequency, is it true that the Hot Spring Vanguard requires 5 filters as opposed to 1 in the Beachcomber 720X?  If so, the overall cost would likely be 5 times higher wouldn't it?  Probably should not be the determining factor, but certainly something to take into consideration!

[Spatech_tuo]

I would think every 2 or 3 years would be sufficient.  Regardless of the frequency, is it true that the Hot Spring Vanguard requires 5 filters as opposed to 1 in the Beachcomber 720X?  If so, the overall cost would likely be 5 times higher wouldn't it?  Probably should not be the determining factor, but certainly something to take into consideration!

Assuming the Vangaurd has 2 pumps it would therefore have 5 filters, 1 for the circ pump and 2 for each jet pump. The BC has 1 filter I do beleive but its probably larger than the individual Hot Springs filters. Call each dealer and find out how much replacements are and how long they last.

[Pathfinder]

Beachcombers Stock Filter is a 25sqft but move up to a 50 & you'll be fine

[soak-king]

The HotSpring Vanguard has (5) 30 sq ft filters with the option of upgrading to the Tri-X filters which filter 65 sq ft each.

That would be 325 sq ft of filtration  .

If the filters are maintained properly you should have no problems getting 3-5 years use from them.