cloudy water?

[soaknit]

This may sound like a stupid question, but does the steam coming off the water in cold weather make the water look cloudy? My water was looking really clear till we had a cold snap 9 to 25 degrees and when i opened the cover the water looked cloudy. Tested the water and needed a little PH down. The water is 104, less than three weeks old, (new spa) sanitized with chlorine free oxidizer after every use. Using a mineral cartridge and ozone, 24 hr circ pump. Dealer said to add i tps chlorine if cloudy or hazy which I did, tested water...ok but still looks hazy in the day as well as night with the lights on. Steam rising off the water so it is hard to tell if it is clear or not....any ideas? Also I have brought water samples to the dealer and have to add ph down, hardness has been spot on and akalinity in range.

[clover]

....The water is 104, less than three weeks old, (new spa) sanitized with chlorine free oxidizer after every use. Using a mineral cartridge and ozone, 24 hr circ pump......Also I have brought water samples to the dealer and have to add ph down, hardness has been spot on and akalinity in range.

Did you use any metal sequestering agents, like Liesure Time Metal Gon, or, SeaKlear. 

"sanitized with chlorine free oxidizer", do you mean Shock?  Chlorine IS a sanitizer that is sometimes mixed with shock, but you can not "sanitize" with "chlorine FREE oxidizer (shock). 

Your ozonator IS a Sanitizer that is capable of producing sparkling clean, crystal clear, "polished" water.   

[gadfly]

You most likely have an infection in the the tub, due to inadequate sanitation.  You need more chlorine in your routine.  Search the site for posts regarding the Vermonter approach.

To address the current situation and get ahead of the infection, add at least 5ppm chlorine (depending on the size of your tub, likely a TABLESPOON dichlor, or 2 oz of bleach) test after two hours to make sure that is still reads 1ppm or higher.  If not dose again, and again if needed, until you can maintain a reading for two hours.  Then use chlorine after each soak.

[abarts]

I did shock with the chlorine (1tbs) and it cleared up. I am using a non chlorine shock along with spa frog and ozone generator. The dealer is saying I do not have to maintain as hi a level of chlorine as I would not using the frog and ozone, though he did say if the water is hazy or cloudy to do just what you said and shock with di-chlor. I shock with the non chlorine after aech use. The learning curve!!!

[clover]

Your water has the "potential" of being sparkling clean and crystal clear with ozone alone.  Silver Ions help and that is what you are also using in conjunction with the ozone.  I do not know if you have addressed the issue of metals in the water by using a sequestering agent.  This could be the root cause of your hazy, or cloudy water.  Adding chlorine WILL change the properties of the cloudy water, but when the chlorine disapates, your clody water will return.  Give it a day.

[gadfly]

I did shock with the chlorine (1tbs) and it cleared up. I am using a non chlorine shock along with spa frog and ozone generator. The dealer is saying I do not have to maintain as hi a level of chlorine as I would not using the frog and ozone, though he did say if the water is hazy or cloudy to do just what you said and shock with di-chlor. I shock with the non chlorine after aech use. The learning curve!!!

If you wait to your water becomes cloudy, you have already allowed an infection to grow... and you end up needing larger doses of chlorine, than if you just use a little regularly... and keep the bacteria in control.  Look at some of the Chem Geek and Vermonter info on this site.  IMO it is better keep the tub healthy, and safe.

[gadfly]

Your water has the "potential" of being sparkling clean and crystal clear with ozone alone...

It may have the "potential", but the reality is most tubs need regular sanitation with chlorine or bromine.  I know you are a "ozone believer", but this has been hashed out several times in old threads, and IMO the science does not back up your opinion.  Ozone and silver/copper ions help, but do not replace traditional sanitizers.

[chem geek]

Ozone oxidizes organics so can reduce chlorine usage in heavily used spas (used every day or two) though it increases chlorine demand in spas that are not heavily used (once a week or less) because ozone oxidizes chlorine to chlorate or reduces chlorine to chloride.  Roughly speaking, a typical spa ozonator cuts chlorine demand in half in a spa used every day while it doubles chlorine demand in a spa used once a week or less.

As for sanitation, ozone will kill most pathogens that get circulated through the ozonator, but it does nothing for pathogens stuck to spa surfaces and does nothing to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease.  At least with a spa the turnover rates are much shorter than in a pool.  So a residual disinfectant is needed, but metal ions alone are not sufficient.  See this post for why metal ions alone don't kill bacteria quickly enough to prevent person-to-person transmission and how they aren't effective against most viruses or protozoan oocysts (chlorine isn't great against the latter either, but is still better than metal ions).  Copper ions do not even inhibit fecal bacteria so if one uses metal ions one needs both copper and silver, but even that is just to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth and is unnecessary if proper chlorine levels are always maintained.

The only exception where metal ions are fast enough sanitizers is the combination of silver ions (such as from Nature2) with non-chlorine shock (MPS).  This combination of Nature2 with MPS was approved by the EPA as it passes DIS/TSS-12, but only at hot spa temperatures (i.e. this approach cannot be used in pools).  Even so, chlorine typically has to be used once a week or so to keep the water clear since MPS will not oxidize the same organics as well as chlorine.  Note that one must follow the instructions in the Nature2 Owner's Manual where the MPS level is maintained consistently with it being added both before and after a soak if required.

The bottom line is that ozonators are great supplemental oxidation systems for heavily used spas and will help kill protozoan oocysts such as Cryptosporidium that chlorine won't touch.  For pools, most residential ozonators are woefully undersized both in output and in contact time, but a proper system (which is generally more expensive) can be helpful in commercial/public pools where bather loads are typically high.

[Comotoes]

Whelp, call me guffaw but I'm thinkin' that contaminants other than bacteria can easily cloud spa water.  For instance,I can always tell when someone's been in ours with a suit on as you can rarely see the bottom after that.  Sometimes it also causes a real bad foaming problem at the same time - depending on how well rinsed the clothing is, whether mom used fabric softener and so on.  If you must wear them - privacy concerns, guests, Catholic upbringing, etc. - make sure they're well rinsed beforehand.

There again, you might have a bacteria problem!

[clover]

The spa is new, the water then was (3) weeks old, using ozone, mineral frog, and non-chlorinated shock, but has CLOUDY WATER, until chlorine is added, chloramines then change to chlorides, the cloud disappears, only to reappear when chlorine dissipates, and the cloud returns.  This is not a bacteria problem.

Yes, I am an avid “O3 Believer” with 28 years of “hands on” ozone customer experience.  I have personally assisted over 3,200 new tub installs supported by ozone as a primary sanitizer with complete customer satisfaction and success.  I will not try to convince anyone of anything, as I have personally experienced the time tested truth of satisfying customer problems.  Ozone does have the potential as it is stronger, faster acting on the kill, very efficient and very effective, but it must be understood to achieve its full potential.

There is no money to be made here in promoting the use of ozone, especially in a chemically dependent industry.  Soaknit has cloudy water, I think I know why?  Could be right, could be wrong.  Problem is you have got to get the waterborne metals out that are passing through the filter to achieve polished clean water and most people do not understand that, much less think of it.  Prove me wrong.

I would simply suggest taking the “Frog” out temporarily, and use Leisure Time “Metal Gon”, which is a sequestering agent for iron, copper and other waterborne mineral matter, OR, Sea-Klear, 4 in 1 clarifier, which uses natural materials to coagulate tiny metal particles of iron, copper, etc, effectively capturing metals in the filter.  Without it, the tiny particles naturally present in water simply pass through the filter media.

Ozone is a powerful agent IF it is understood.  If you are suggesting increasing chemical usage, then have them unplug the ozone and eliminate it, as you are then reverting to, and relying upon chemicals, in lieu of understanding the use of ozone.   As a result of using ozone, you will minimize the use of chemicals that accumulate in the form of undissolved solids.