Nordic or HotSpot models - newbie looking for advice (add a HotSpring model too)

[Scoobmaster]

Hello everyone.

I am obviously new to the forum and am posting looking for some sage advice about making a good decision on my first tub purchase.  We are a family of 3 looking to place a tub on our new outdoor deck (constructed with a hot tub in mind, so the contractor beefed it up with extra posts and supports where we want to place the tub).  I have spent the past weekend reading through many posts here and think I can take the following wisdom as universal so far:

- The quality and build of the top "big name" manufacturers with nationwide dealer support all are very good and comparable (every manufacturer can have a problem or two and everyone can have horror stories posted, but that is true for ANY industry with manufactured products)
- The local dealer you buy from is as if not more important than the brand you buy (you want a reputable and knowledgeable dealer in the area that will be around to take care of you).
- Open seating tubs generally are better for more entertaining and social gatherings, while tubs with recliners are better for more personal therapy use.
- Wet testing is a very important, if not a MUST.  What looks like your perfect tub "on paper" may disappoint in actual use, while a tub you never thought you would like may surprise you and feel the best.

Please feel free to correct any of that or add more advice.

With that said, I am looking for a simple tub that is reliable, reasonably priced, easy to use and maintain, and isn't loaded with many "bells and whistles" that in my opinion add more cost and complexity (and potential problems)  than they are worth.  I don't want to spend a lot of time and money on upkeep - I am willing to do necessary upkeep and maintenance, but it is my understanding that some tubs require more time and effort than others.  The two dealers in my area that I would trust to buy from (both well-established and in existence for over 30 years in our area of upstate NY) carry Sundance, Nordic, Hot Springs, and Hot Spot.  Of the ones we have looked at "ON PAPER", we like the Nordic Retreat and Hot Spot SX.  Both look like fairly basic but well-constructed tubs.  I like the fact that Nordic seems to have a very durable low-maintenance shell (this tub will be outside on my deck exposed to upstate NY winters).  Are the two (Hot Spot and Nordic) comparable?  Having read many posts about Nordic and their seeming lack of insulation, I think it would be wise to get the better insulation package and 220 volt option if I go that route - correct?

Are there any other models one would recommend in those four manufacturer lines for a family of three (may have some occasional guests over, but we are not big "party people")?  I want to have a tub "big enough" (I am 6'1" and 220lbs) but don't want to pay to keep more water hot than I need too.  

Also, one of the dealers refurbishes and sells traded used tubs with a decent warranty. They go through then and thoroughly clean and refurbish them (so I have heard from several friends and satisfied customers).  Would that be a good option to save some money on a first tub purchase?  

Thanks for any advice in advance.  We are early in our tub quest experience and learning more every day.  I am sure that there are 100 things I have not thought of yet.

[Spatech_tuo]

Below born and raised in Upstate NY myself I'll chime in for a fellow Upstater.

1) The wet testing is a great idea in general but especially key if you are getting a lounge spa or are an oversized or undersized person in some way (tall, wide, short, etc.). I'm pretty average at 5'9" 190 lbs and got an open seated spa so I could have gotten mine without wet testing without much concern IMO but if I had gotten a lounge spa or decided to put on 75 lbs (or grow 6 inches) I'd have felt a greater need to wet test.

2) The insulation method is huge where you live. The 220 vs 110 thing is not major other than the fact that when in the spa if you turn the jets on it disables the heater until you turn the jets back off (can't handle amp draw to run both simultaneously). The cost of operation is not really any lower to run 220 though; if you can go 220v then do so but not with the idea it saves you money in operation. The key is method of insulation and this is one area some may skimp on to keep the price down.

3) Who you buy from (will they be there after the sale) and what brand you buy (quality of build of course plus most have similar warranties but not all manufacturers stand behind it to the same degree) are equally important.

4) Buying used can get you a good deal but look for a few things. Try to make sure its hot and has water in it (a 100% must if buying from an owner). If dry from a dealer at least the dealer should be able to give you a 90 day store warranty (this is negotiable, if they say 30 push for longer). Its best to buy a spa that the dealer actually sells and services but if they are good at servicing they should be able to care for you either way but if its their product you'll be able to get parts from them easier after that store warranty ends.

My short list of what I persoanlly consider to be some of the better brands is Caldera, D!, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi and Sundance so I think you're looking at some good ones already.

[castletonia]

First, I am a Nordic dealer.  Nordic's standard insulation is decent. not going to cost you an arm and a leg but not going to be the most energy efficient.  Because of this, I order all of my tubs with what Nordic calls "Title 20" insulation upgrade.  It is a layer of backed fiberglass insulation that attaches to the inside of the cabinet and floor of the spa.  It it a big improvement in lowering the operating cost compared to the standard insulation especially in colder climates (I'm in Wisconsin). 

Regarding the two brands you are looking at, I personally think they are both quality basic hot tubs and from a quality standpoint could not go wrong with either.  Look into the dealers and make sure you are comfortable with them as they are the ones taking care of you after the sale.  Also wettest each spa to see which fits you best.  I like the retreat a lot and would own one personally if I had the money.  If 220v is an option for you, I would look at the Retreat SE as it has a larger 220v only pump which is more efficient than the 110v pump the regular Retreat has.

If similarly priced, I would go with the one that is more comfortable to you since I see the dealers are reputable.

[Scoobmaster]

Thanks to both of you for the replies.

I will definitely go with the best insulation package available on whatever tub manufacturer I choose.  Running a 220 line to the deck is not a problem, and the idea of having it heat up quicker and having power to the heater while the jets are on is appealing to me, so I think that clinches that decision. 

I do have a question for Castletonia:

Being a Nordic dealer, perhaps you could clarify something for me.  I have been wondering about the differences between their round and square/rectangular models.  I know that there design strategy is that of the "classic" whirlpool spa and their claim to fame is the powerful whole-tub whirlpool jet.  I wouldn't now the difference between that and the strong individual jets right now (but I hope to see in a wet test soon).  Do their square/rectangular tubs have a good whirlpool as well?  I was looking at the Escape models and the shape looks more conducive to a whirlpool than the Retreat. 

 Also, would it be a real substantial price increase to add the 220v SE pump and "title 20" insulation to the Retreat?  Thanks for your input.

[castletonia]

with the whirlpool jet you have the ability to divert all water pressure from the other jets to the whirlpool jet which creates a lot of turbulence in the water which will give you the "classic" whirlpool therapy as Nordic calls it.  The Retreat will have the same volume as a round spa like the Crown II or Warrior XL however you will not get as much as the circular action from the whirlpool jet since there is less area. 

I personally would use the whirlpool jet for a foot massage if you were laying on the bench section of the retreat or a lower back massage.  You can also adjust the water volume going between the whirlpool jet and the other jets so that it is not all or nothing.

I would definitely get the Title 20 insulation with any Nordic as the cost is not much ( I charge $125 for the upgrade) and the reduction in energy consumption will more than pay what the upgrade cost.  I don't think you have the option of ordering a 220v pump with the Retreat, you have to get the special edition (SE).  Though I suppose your dealer could just swap out the 110v pump for the 220v pump but that would be up to your dealer.

Definitely wettest.  I like the layout in the Retreat a lot more than the Escape and I also sell a lot more Retreats.

[Scoobmaster]

Thanks a bunch for your helpful information.  I will definitely ask about the the availability of the Retreat SE

[Scoobmaster]

We have an appointment to go for our first wet test tomorrow.  The dealer has some of the Nordic Retreats in stock, but the one that is full and ready to go is the Escape, so that will be the first one I try out.  I would still like to try the Retreat as that is the model I am most interested in, but I won't rule out the escape if the price is right and it feels good to us (who knows - after a soak I may find we like that layout better).

I also stopped at the other reputable dealer in our area and scoped out two models in/around our budget there.  The HotSpot Relay and the HotSpring Prodigy.  The Prodigy concerns me as it looks shallower (only 33" tall) - is that a legitimate concern, or not a big deal?  Based on size/shape/configuration/ and of course price, I have it narrowed down to these four.  Wet testing will help me pick the right model for us I am sure. 

I was also curious as to whether the pricing I am being quoted are fairly standard or if i am looking at a good deal (it always comes down to price - we consumers want the most tub for the least, dealers need to turn a decent profit to stay in business - I appreciate and understand this).  The Nordic dealer is asking $4500 for the Retreat and I believe $5500 or $6000 for the Escape.   Those include covers and chemicals, but NOT the cover lift arm, tax, or delivery ($200, 8%, and $250 respectively).  The HotSpring dealer prices "all-inclusive" and offered me the HotSpot Relay for $5300 and the HotSpring Prodigy for $6600.  Those two prices INCLUDE everything including tax,cover,lift arm, delivery, chemicals, and steps.
When I add the tax, cover lift (a must-have I am told by spa owners), and delivery to the $4500 Nordic - it puts it right close to the HotSpot Relay, which is a larger tub.

Comparing "apples to apples": Nordic Retreat vs. HotSpot Relay for around the $5000 mark.  Nordic Escape vs. HotSpring Prodigy for around $6000-6500 (HotSpring dealer said ne MIGHT be able to wiggle a bit on that $6600 quote).  I plan to test all four before making my decision, but I would love to hear any opinions based on these four options at this price range (My budget going into this was around $5000 max  - but I *could* spend a tad more if it were truly justified)

[castletonia]

Is that price for the Escape or Escape premium?  If not the premium the price is high.  $4500 is about what I sell the Retreat for.  You can almost always negotiate things like the cover lift and I would think also on delivery depending on how far you are from the dealer.  I have no idea on the Hot Spot or Hot Spring pricing so I cannot comment on whether that is good or bad. 

[Tman122]

We have an appointment to go for our first wet test tomorrow.  The dealer has some of the Nordic Retreats in stock, but the one that is full and ready to go is the Escape, so that will be the first one I try out.  I would still like to try the Retreat as that is the model I am most interested in, but I won't rule out the escape if the price is right and it feels good to us (who knows - after a soak I may find we like that layout better).

I also stopped at the other reputable dealer in our area and scoped out two models in/around our budget there.  The HotSpot Relay and the HotSpring Prodigy.  The Prodigy concerns me as it looks shallower (only 33" tall) - is that a legitimate concern, or not a big deal?  Based on size/shape/configuration/ and of course price, I have it narrowed down to these four.  Wet testing will help me pick the right model for us I am sure. 

I was also curious as to whether the pricing I am being quoted are fairly standard or if i am looking at a good deal (it always comes down to price - we consumers want the most tub for the least, dealers need to turn a decent profit to stay in business - I appreciate and understand this).  The Nordic dealer is asking $4500 for the Retreat and I believe $5500 or $6000 for the Escape.   Those include covers and chemicals, but NOT the cover lift arm, tax, or delivery ($200, 8%, and $250 respectively).  The HotSpring dealer prices "all-inclusive" and offered me the HotSpot Relay for $5300 and the HotSpring Prodigy for $6600.  Those two prices INCLUDE everything including tax,cover,lift arm, delivery, chemicals, and steps.
When I add the tax, cover lift (a must-have I am told by spa owners), and delivery to the $4500 Nordic - it puts it right close to the HotSpot Relay, which is a larger tub.

Comparing "apples to apples": Nordic Retreat vs. HotSpot Relay for around the $5000 mark.  Nordic Escape vs. HotSpring Prodigy for around $6000-6500 (HotSpring dealer said ne MIGHT be able to wiggle a bit on that $6600 quote).  I plan to test all four before making my decision, but I would love to hear any opinions based on these four options at this price range (My budget going into this was around $5000 max  - but I *could* spend a tad more if it were truly justified)

IMHO you are going into this with a perfect plan. I would add that the insulation package on the Nordics is not quiet as good as the HS products unless you get the upgrade on the Nordics then IMO you are comparing them properly.

[Scoobmaster]

Well - we made it through our FIRST wet test.  It was a pretty easy and enjoyable experience actually.  While all three of us (me, wife and son) were in the tub we asked questions and played "musical chairs" to try each try out all the different seats.  When the timer shut the jets off and the dealer told me we had been in there for about 20 minutes I couldn't believe it (seemed like only 10 minutes had gone by). 

The model we soaked in was the Nordic Escape PREMIUM (castletonia: that puts the price in the right range, right?) since that was already full and operating in the showroom.  It is bigger than the one I wanted to try (the Retreat) but after we all discussed it, maybe a little larger would be better.  As we were in there, we tried to envision another person getting in (making a fourth) and it seems like that would be the limit without getting too intimate.  Maybe the Retreat would be perfect for three but too small for a fourth guest?  I still want to wet test the Retreat (sat in it dry twice now) but the dealer seems to act like it would be an inconvenience to get that spa full and hot (having to move it to where power is, yada yada).  I would have thought he would have offered since that is the model I SPECIFICALLY expressed interest in on both visits.  At least I have a baseline now to compare and judge others by.

I still am going to schedule a visit with the other dealer (HotSpring).   I want to try one of the HotSpot Relay/Tempo models as well as the HotSpring Prodigy.  They also carry the Limelight line (HotSprings "middle" tier) - any comparable models there I should possibly look at?

Tman122:  Thanks for the compliment.  I am trying to be the best informed consumer I can be to make the right decision for me and my family. 

[castletonia]

$5500 is a fair price for the Escape Premium.  If that dealer really wants your business, they WILL fill that Retreat for you.  If you give them a day or so there is no reason to not fill a spa for a wet test.