Anyone have 100amp service with a 220V Spa?

[aduvall]

Sorry to be a pain in the rump and ask so many questions.. I posted it here once,(and deleted it) because I don't think I gave enough information.

I'm buying a 2008 220V HS Soverign

My house is wired 100amp service
Do you think I will have enough amps or will I be looking at upgrading to 200amp service?

Major appliances:
Stove-GAS
Furnace-GAS
Dryer-GAS

Dishwasher-ELECTRIC
Washing Machine- ELECTRIC
2 Fridge-ELECTRIC (going down to one)
Freezer- ELECTRIC
Misc Household-ELECTRIC

A/C Ran on a seperate meter.

I'm hoping to hear that some of you have 100amp service and have no problems.

Thanks in advance.
Angie

[Vinny]

Well, here's my take on it.

Theoretically you can run the spa on 100 Amp service as long as you are aware of the current draw. You say that the AC is on a seperate meter so by that I am assuming that you have 2 lines coming into your house so the AC is not on the rest of the power. If it is not and depending on how old it is it could be close to 40 Amp itself. There is a person who posts here who is an industrial electrician who would say - yes you can.

Now in real life situations, theoretics sometimes don't work not to mention municipalities may require something else. Most circuits in a house are only allowed 80% of their intended current draw but I don't know where the Natioonal Electric code stands on the main breaker.

Ultimately I had 100 amp service with almost the same appliances (I had no freezer and only 1 refrig with new central AC) and upgraded to 200 Amp service as I wanted to be 100% OK and not have to worry about any electrical problems.

I would suggest to contact your municipality and find out what they require - ultimately they are the ones issuing building and electrical permits and you have to make them happy.

[aduvall]

Well, here's my take on it.

Theoretically you can run the spa on 100 Amp service as long as you are aware of the current draw. You say that the AC is on a seperate meter so by that I am assuming that you have 2 lines coming into your house so the AC is not on the rest of the power. If it is not and depending on how old it is it could be close to 40 Amp itself. There is a person who posts here who is an industrial electrician who would say - yes you can.

Now in real life situations, theoretics sometimes don't work not to mention municipalities may require something else. Most circuits in a house are only allowed 80% of their intended current draw but I don't know where the Natioonal Electric code stands on the main breaker.

Ultimately I had 100 amp service with almost the same appliances (I had no freezer and only 1 refrig with new central AC) and upgraded to 200 Amp service as I wanted to be 100% OK and not have to worry about any electrical problems.

I would suggest to contact your municipality and find out what they require - ultimately they are the ones issuing building and electrical permits and you have to make them happy.

**********************************************************
Vinny,
Thanks for your insight. Yes the AC is on a seperate meter that has nothing to do with the 100amp service line.

You got me thinking and I went into our city website and was looking at the spa permit and it didn't say much about spa's, only pools. (Spa/Pool brochure permits). As a matter of fact most of it was for pools and excluded spa's on  alot of the requirements. Seems like they were mainly concerned on permit fee's and placement of the spa.  

Our Hot Springs contractor told us that he would pull the permit, but I don't know if he knows that he needs to submit plans with a drawing of the property and where the spa will be at. umm.
-That means in the morning I'll need to call him because I do not want anything delaying my spa install. (YEAH! And he states that all I need to do is to call him and he will pull the permit and be out the day it is delivered.

After the work has been completed, they state that I must call for a final inspection. Does this mean I cannot use the spa until the inspection is fully completed?

Thanks again Vinny for your experiance and advice.  I really appreciate all the help!
Angie

[Nitro]

I have 100 AMP service in my house with

Range-GAS
Oven-GAS
Furnace-GAS
Dryer-GAS
Water heater-GAS

Microwave-ELECTRIC
Dishwasher-ELECTRIC
Washing Machine- ELECTRIC
2 Fridges-ELECTRIC
1 Kegerator-ELECTRIC
3 A/C's
1 Central Air
2 Window units.
2 TV's
1 500 Watt Amp
Misc Household-ELECTRIC

I turned everything on, the A/C's, TV's, Amp at 75% Vol, Microwave, Toster Oven, Fans, Hair Dryer, all the lights, everything I could think to turn on. Then the hottub with two 5 hp pumps and heater running (rated 240v @ 60amp). I left everything running for about 10 mins before I shut everything down. No circuit breakers blew.

HOWEVER, the reason I did this test is becuase I was getting brownouts when my hot tub turned on. I was worried, I didn't have enough juice to run it. After running this test with no circiuts blowing, I knew there was another problem. So I checked every connection going from the breaker to the tub. I found that a wire connecting to the tub control box was clamped about 80% on the insulation of the wire instead of the copper. So I re-stripped the wire and clamped it back up. Sure enough I haven't had a problem since.

The moral of the story is, you can problably run your hot tub ok with your setup, IF all your connections are good. But if you have one bad connection (or breaker) you might have problems. The only way to know for sure is to hook it up and try it. If your Main breaker keeps blowing, you know you have too much load, a bad breaker or bad connection. Then it's time to check connections, try a new breaker or if all else fails upgrade your service. It also depends on your situation (money, how long your staying there etc.) My opinion is if you can run everything in your house (like I did) without the Main breaker blowing, I wouldn't worry about.

[kokanee001]

I, too, run a stove, furnace fan, dryer, dishwasher, microwave, washing machine, 2 fridges, 2 freezers, a computer, 2 TVs, central AC and my hot tub all on a 100 amp service without any problems. The electrician who installed it said it would be fine and so far its been all good. I'm glad because upgrading to a 200 amp service is fairly expensive.

[Brewman]

You should find out the rules in your city/county/township.  There are demand load calculations that are performed to determine what size electrical service is required by the local electrical authority in your area.  
 Only they can tell you what is allowed.  If you choose to stay within the local code, you may face a service upgrade.  If you choose to ignore code, you may (or may not) have some issues down the road if you choose to sell the property.
 Many cities in this area (not mine) require inspections before the property can change hands.  They check to make sure permits are on file for all improvements in the property, and will not allow the sale until the property is brought up to code.
 It's your property, your headache.  

In my city, there are two inspections required for a spa install.  The rough-in has all of the wiring uncovered and NOT connected to the power.  If the rough in inspection is passed, then the spa may be powered up after the power is connected.  The final inspection is done after everything is totally finished, and that's when the device is put into use.  We can't use the spa prior to the rough in.  After the rough inspection is done, we can power up the spa to test it prior to the final inspection.  

YMMV

[aduvall]

You should find out the rules in your city/county/township.  There are demand load calculations that are performed to determine what size electrical service is required by the local electrical authority in your area.  
 Only they can tell you what is allowed.  If you choose to stay within the local code, you may face a service upgrade.  If you choose to ignore code, you may (or may not) have some issues down the road if you choose to sell the property.
 Many cities in this area (not mine) require inspections before the property can change hands.  They check to make sure permits are on file for all improvements in the property, and will not allow the sale until the property is brought up to code.
 It's your property, your headache.  

In my city, there are two inspections required for a spa install.  The rough-in has all of the wiring uncovered and NOT connected to the power.  If the rough in inspection is passed, then the spa may be powered up after the power is connected.  The final inspection is done after everything is totally finished, and that's when the device is put into use.  We can't use the spa prior to the rough in.  After the rough inspection is done, we can power up the spa to test it prior to the final inspection.  

YMMV

*********************************************************
Thanks for the information! We definatly plan on doing everything by code.
 -I was just curious on if I could run it on 100amp or was I going to have problems and need to do an upgrade.

As it stands right now...our contracter is coming out the day of delievery.

...after reading some postings I thought to my self "I wonder if I'll need an upgrade cause if I do then the electric install will not be completed on the day of delivery and the tub is going to sit out in the freezing temperture"

Alot to consider and alot to get done. Thanks for the information. I'll be placing a call today to our contractor today.
 

[zroger73]

I have 100-amp service in my home that was built in 1964. I've had no problems with my 220-volt '08 HS Sov II since I installed it in June '08.

A/C, dryer, cooktop, and oven are electric.
Furnace, water heater are gas.

My meter feeds a 100-amp fused disconnect outside which feeds the breaker box inside. The disconnect also feeds a panel that I added outside that houses a 50-amp breaker that feeds the GFCI panel that came with the hot tub.

According to my calculations, if I turned on everything at once I'd likely blow the 100-amp fuses. However, the likelihood of the A/C running while I'm drying clothes while someone is in the hot tub while baking in the oven and cooking on all four elements hasn't happened yet. If it ever does, I'll just reschedule laundry, replace the fuses, and continue on. I have spare fuses handy.

I understand electricity and wiring practices and many electrical codes, but I am not a licensed electrician. I performed my own work and feel very comfortable with the reliability and safety of my installation, but I encourage hiring a qualified electrician for a multitude of reasons including safety, liability, reliability, insurance, etc. In my field of work, electrical and gas safety are priorities, so I tend to err on the side of safety when it doubt. I have no problem replacing a fuse or resetting a breaker, but I'm not comfortable with electrical fires or electrocution hazards - all of which can be avoided by using proper wiring practices. I was not willing to upgrade to 150 or 200-amp service, so I accept the very small risk of blowing fuses in my case.

[aduvall]

I, too, run a stove, furnace fan, dryer, dishwasher, microwave, washing machine, 2 fridges, 2 freezers, a computer, 2 TVs, central AC and my hot tub all on a 100 amp service without any problems. The electrician who installed it said it would be fine and so far its been all good. I'm glad because upgrading to a 200 amp service is fairly expensive.

**********************************************************

Wow! Now thats alot to run along with the hot tub. Is your hot tub 110 or 220v?  But it great to hear!
I too would like to save the money and stay at 100amps. And it's nice to hear that thier are some poeple who do run off of 100amps with no problems. **Lets hope I can do the same.

I have been worried because I do have only 100amp service and when I plug in the vaccum in three locations in the house I always blow a fuse. Maybe its just that circuit?

I guess the only way to tell is to let the contractor come out and tell me.  Hopefully the extra trip (service charge) won't cost me all that much. And I guess its better to be safe than sorry.

I certainly don't want my tub to arrive and then sit here until 200 amp is istalled.  :-?

Thanks again for replying and letting me know about your experiance!

[aduvall]

I have 100 AMP service in my house with

Range-GAS
Oven-GAS
Furnace-GAS
Dryer-GAS
Water heater-GAS

Microwave-ELECTRIC
Dishwasher-ELECTRIC
Washing Machine- ELECTRIC
2 Fridges-ELECTRIC
1 Kegerator-ELECTRIC
3 A/C's
1 Central Air
2 Window units.
2 TV's
1 500 Watt Amp
Misc Household-ELECTRIC

I turned everything on, the A/C's, TV's, Amp at 75% Vol, Microwave, Toster Oven, Fans, Hair Dryer, all the lights, everything I could think to turn on. Then the hottub with two 5 hp pumps and heater running (rated 240v @ 60amp). I left everything running for about 10 mins before I shut everything down. No circuit breakers blew.

HOWEVER, the reason I did this test is becuase I was getting brownouts when my hot tub turned on. I was worried, I didn't have enough juice to run it. After running this test with no circiuts blowing, I knew there was another problem. So I checked every connection going from the breaker to the tub. I found that a wire connecting to the tub control box was clamped about 80% on the insulation of the wire instead of the copper. So I re-stripped the wire and clamped it back up. Sure enough I haven't had a problem since.

The moral of the story is, you can problably run your hot tub ok with your setup, IF all your connections are good. But if you have one bad connection (or breaker) you might have problems. The only way to know for sure is to hook it up and try it. If your Main breaker keeps blowing, you know you have too much load, a bad breaker or bad connection. Then it's time to check connections, try a new breaker or if all else fails upgrade your service. It also depends on your situation (money, how long your staying there etc.) My opinion is if you can run everything in your house (like I did) without the Main breaker blowing, I wouldn't worry about.

***********************************************************
Nitro,
Thanks for the long detail! I appreicate your experaince.
I can't believe that you were able to run all those appliances along with your hot tub. That is great! You must have some great wiring!!!!

I have never heard of brownouts. Do you think I have  brownouts or just too much dedidcated to one circuit?
When I plug in my vaccum (One living room outlet, bathroom outlet, and daughters bedroom) it blows a fuse. Its the only three places int he house that blows.

--I'm just so worried about my wiring because when we moved in five years ago we had the old twist knobs and replace. Last year we replaced  it with a panel of flip circuit breakers.  The house is 22 years old and has never had anything done to it.  And, I mean nothing! We have had to paint, replace and almost start over with everything.

Any suggestions for me?
Thanks again!
Angie

[aduvall]

I have 100-amp service in my home that was built in 1964. I've had no problems with my 220-volt '08 HS Sov II since I installed it in June '08.

A/C, dryer, cooktop, and oven are electric.
Furnace, water heater are gas.

My meter feeds a 100-amp fused disconnect outside which feeds the breaker box inside. The disconnect also feeds a panel that I added outside that houses a 50-amp breaker that feeds the GFCI panel that came with the hot tub.

According to my calculations, if I turned on everything at once I'd likely blow the 100-amp fuses. However, the likelihood of the A/C running while I'm drying clothes while someone is in the hot tub while baking in the oven and cooking on all four elements hasn't happened yet. If it ever does, I'll just reschedule laundry, replace the fuses, and continue on. I have spare fuses handy.

I understand electricity and wiring practices and many electrical codes, but I am not a licensed electrician. I performed my own work and feel very comfortable with the reliability and safety of my installation, but I encourage hiring a qualified electrician for a multitude of reasons including safety, liability, reliability, insurance, etc. In my field of work, electrical and gas safety are priorities, so I tend to err on the side of safety when it doubt. I have no problem replacing a fuse or resetting a breaker, but I'm not comfortable with electrical fires or electrocution hazards - all of which can be avoided by using proper wiring practices. I was not willing to upgrade to 150 or 200-amp service, so I accept the very small risk of blowing fuses in my case.

******************************************************************
Zroger73,
I'm 100% on safty and procedures! I'll do what ever it takes, I was just curious if my 100amp could be done.  Looks like its a all depends situation for me.
 
My contracter is someone that HS reccommended. He does a majority of HS in my area, so I feel confident that he will do a great job and he is fully licensed.

I just don't know if I should call him over to look at what I have and pay a service charge or just wait until he gets here? What would you do?

So how do you like your new 2008 HS Soverign?  What colors did you get?  Are you using it this winter?

Also did they have to dig a trench for the line to be burried? Being that we are in the single digit temps we are just waiting for the next time we have some 35-40* weather before having them come out to install.

Thanks again for your advice and its great to know that someone has the same exact spa as me!
Angie

[Brewman]

Keep in mind that it may not be your choice on the service upgrade.  If one isn't required, then you can opt out, and save yourself a ton of money.
If one is required by the authority in your area, you won't have much choice.
With 100 amp service, you'll likely be okay, but sometimes this type of thing is as much an art as a science and may depend on your local authorities standards.

Be happy you don't have a dwelling with the older 60 amp service- you'd be facing a service upgrade for sure, and that can cost thousands, depending on the labor rates in your locale.

We paid our builder about $50 to upgrade from 150 to 200 amp service, a relative bargain.  But that's only possible pre construction.
Minimal requirements in my area are now 150 amp.

A trench may be required to bury your lines.  You should be able to get all the requirements from your electrical board.  Hot tub wiring code is relatively complicated, so be sure you understand what you're getting into if you decide to DIY.  

I saved about $2000 doing my own work, which included me installing a 100 amp sub panel to serve the spa and some other circuits, but it's not a good first project.  I've done a lot of residential DIY wiring projects prior to the hot tub.  

[Nitro]

***********************************************************
Nitro,
Thanks for the long detail! I appreicate your experaince.
I can't believe that you were able to run all those appliances along with your hot tub. That is great! You must have some great wiring!!!!

I do, because my father and I re-wired the whole house. This house was built in 1955 and originally had 60amp service. After I upgraded to 100 amp service about 12 years ago, I re-wired all the circuits. I was having isues with a few of them, so I decided to just re-wire every one.

I have never heard of brownouts. Do you think I have  brownouts or just too much dedidcated to one circuit?
When I plug in my vaccum (One living room outlet, bathroom outlet, and daughters bedroom) it blows a fuse. Its the only three places int he house that blows.

You could have a bad circuit breaker. When circuit breakers get old, they sometimes start tripping below their rated current. You can replace it yourself easily, or ask your electrcian when he's there. He may do it at no charge. It only takes a few minutes in a modern breaker box. It's also possible you have bad wiring or a connection. That's something your electrcian could check out also.

--I'm just so worried about my wiring because when we moved in five years ago we had the old twist knobs and replace. Last year we replaced  it with a panel of flip circuit breakers.  The house is 22 years old and has never had anything done to it.  And, I mean nothing! We have had to paint, replace and almost start over with everything.

Any suggestions for me?

If you're worried about it, I recommend having a electrcian check everything out. That may cost you, but at least you'll have a little more piece of mind.

Here's a little electricity lesson though.

First, your breaker ratings adding up more than your total service is not a problem. I breaker's Amp rating is the Maximum Amp draw that can be pulled from that circuit, to protect you and the wire (more so the wire). Most circuits are running well below their amp rating. That is a good thing, otherwise you'd be blowing fuses all the time.

Another thing about electricity, some loads (motors in particular) pull a lot more current when starting up than their running current. That means running everything at the same time may be well below your max rating, but if everything were to TURN ON at the same time, you might blow a fuse. However, that's not likely.

Lastly, a Brownout is when the line Voltage drops. When that happens, some loads try to pull more current to make up for the drop in Voltage. That's when circuit breakers tend to start tripping to protect the wire.

Now think of Power Plants as being the country's Circuit Breakers. When power demand becomes too great (i.e. in the heat of summer), some power plants shut down (to protect themselves). When that happens, it puts more demand on other Power Plants, which in-turn start shutting down. Think of falling dominos. The goal of power plants is to keep the Main Line Voltage at ~120v. If they can't keep up, the main line voltage drops, causing a Brownout. If the power demand is too great, all the dominos fall (circuits trip), and you have a total Blackout.

When a blackout happens from tripped Power Plants, it's a major problem. You'd think they could just reset themselves, like we reset our cuicuit breakers. It's not that easy though. The reason is, as soon as a power plant turns on, that one power plant has a very large demand. Remember when I mentioned some loads when starting up pull a lot more current than when running. That's the problem. As soon as a Power Plant comes online, a rush of current is yanked from it, causing it to trip again. Imagine all these Power Plants looking at each other, saying "Ok, who's going first?" "Not me!" Now you know why you should turn everything off before resetting a breaker.

Back to your hot tub. If you have everything wired correctly, even if your tub (and everything else) pulls more than 100amps, the worse case is you'll blow your main breaker. However, as ZRoger said, the likelyhood of you running everything (especially in the winter) at once is low.

My advice is pretty much the same as everyone else, find out exactly what your local codes are. If it's ok to run a hot tub on your service, try it. If you find you're blowing fuses (in the summer with AC, during Brownouts etc.), consider upgrading your service. My opinion is, assuming your tub is wired correctly, and you have new modern breakers, you should be fine.

However, I will repeat what ZRoger said, because it also applies to me.

I understand electricity and wiring practices and many electrical codes, but I am not a licensed electrician. I performed my own work and feel very comfortable with the reliability and safety of my installation, but I encourage hiring a qualified electrician for a multitude of reasons including safety, liability, reliability, insurance, etc. etc. etc.

[zroger73]

******************************************************************
Zroger73,
I'm 100% on safty and procedures! I'll do what ever it takes, I was just curious if my 100amp could be done.  Looks like its a all depends situation for me.
 
My contracter is someone that HS reccommended. He does a majority of HS in my area, so I feel confident that he will do a great job and he is fully licensed.

I just don't know if I should call him over to look at what I have and pay a service charge or just wait until he gets here? What would you do?

So how do you like your new 2008 HS Soverign?  What colors did you get?  Are you using it this winter?

Also did they have to dig a trench for the line to be burried? Being that we are in the single digit temps we are just waiting for the next time we have some 35-40* weather before having them come out to install.

Thanks again for your advice and its great to know that someone has the same exact spa as me!
Angie
 

I LOVE my Sov! I got pearl/redwood. You better bet I'm using it this winter! In the summer when it was in the 70s to 90s, I found 90° to be most comfortable. With cooler temperatures - even down to the upper 20s - I find 100° to be most comfortable.

I did all the wiring myself. I added an additional panel off my main disconnect and ran EMT conduit several dozen feet to the GFCI subpanel supplied with the hot tub. From there, I ran several feet of liquid-tight conduit to the hot tub. The entire wiring job took me about 4 hours and cost around $200 in parts. All my wiring worked out to be above ground as it runs along the side of the house, then down a privacy fence.

[Steve]

95% of the people here have 100 amp serice in their home. No issue...no worries!