Another PH question

[brian_tr]

Our water here is very high PH and alkainity and low hardness.  It takes about a 2lb bottle of ph down and half a bottle of hardness increaser over a two week period to bring it close.  I now have my alkainity at 106 but my ph is still reading over 8.8.  If I continue to add ph down I will bring my alkainity below 100.  Usually I get them both in at the same time.  I am lost at what to do now.  

[soak-king]

I'm sure some chem experts will chime in but my understanding is when this happens you have to use Total Alkalinity Increaser and then Ph/Alk down in order to get your readings within range.

 :-?

[Steve]

Not quite soak-king. There's no reason to ADD alk if it's already very high!

Sounds like well water to me.

I wouldn't play around and waste good money with granular pH down in this case. Muriatic acid is way cheaper and far more effective in bringing alk down which is your first step. You are also raising your TDS significantly by adding the quantities that you are.

Adjust alk with muriatic acid and leave it for a few days. Test pH and adjust slowly as needed with a pH decreaser. What is the alk reading on a fresh fill?

There's not much you can do about the low calcium hardness other than to add an increaser. Again, I wouldn't try to achieve this in one day.

Lastly, what is the TDS (total dissolved solids) of your source water? If it is indeed well water, you may be a lot further ahead trucking in water as TDS can start at 800 or 1000ppm giving you little life of the water. Less headaches, less money in the end and far better quality water by bringing it in from an outside source.

Steve

[brian_tr]

Actual I do use muriatic acid.  I usually dont say because people freak out.  I add 2 1/2 cups, 1/2 cup at a time every few days then start using ph down.  My TDS right now is 1200.  I am on city water but it is well water.  Usually I dont have any problem bringing the balance in.  I will get some alkainity increaser to bring back up around 150 and then start using ph down agian.  They also said my phosphates is 1.000.  Not sure what that means.

[Nitro]

Brain,

DO NOT add Alk Increaser (aka Baking Soda). That will just cause your pH to rise more via aeration.

Instead keep adding acid until your Alk is low enough to keep your pH below 8.0. If that's 100, 80 or 60, so be it. My TA is 60, my CH is 200 and my pH is stable at 7.8.

What is you Calcium Hardness?

What kind of sanitizer are you using?

[brian_tr]

Hardness is 190.  I have all ready added ALk increaser.  Working on ph again.  

[Nitro]

Every time you add Alk Increaser (aka Baking Soda) you're making it more difficult to keep you pH down. When you add Baking Soda, then acid, you're just chasing your tail.

You need to get your Total Alkalinity (TA) down. That will slow down your pH from rising via aeration.

[tony]

In your situation, I would worry only about getting my pH down to an acceptable range.  Your high pH can cause scaling and suspension of your calcium, especially with calcium level you have.  Use your muriatic acid once a day and test to slowly bring your pH down as Steve mentioned.  If you use a Taylor kit, you can test for acid demand and get a corresponding amount of muriatic acid to bring the level to where you want it.  Don't worry about your TA right now.  It will follow your pH down.  As Nitro mentioned you probably want your TA on the low side to help keep your pH down anyways.  Skip the alk increaser, stick with muriatic acid and get that pH into range.

[Steve]

In your situation, I would worry only about getting my pH down to an acceptable range.  Your high pH can cause scaling and suspension of your calcium, especially with calcium level you have.  Use your muriatic acid once a day and test to slowly bring your pH down as Steve mentioned.  If you use a Taylor kit, you can test for acid demand and get a corresponding amount of muriatic acid to bring the level to where you want it.  Don't worry about your TA right now.  It will follow your pH down.  As Nitro mentioned you probably want your TA on the low side to help keep your pH down anyways.  Skip the alk increaser, stick with muriatic acid and get that pH into range.

Muraitic acid is not used to bring down pH as only a small amout can and will dramatically effect it. Muriatic is used for very high alk only and as we all know, you always adjust alk first before pH. That's basic watercare. You could bring down your pH but if your alk is still very high, it will just be drawn up again and you'll drive yourself NUTS.

Don't worry about pH as bringing down alk will naturally bring down pH. Most likely, too low initially but once your alk is stable, the pH will also stabilize.

[gadfly]

In your situation, I would worry only about getting my pH down to an acceptable range.  Your high pH can cause scaling and suspension of your calcium, especially with calcium level you have...   As Nitro mentioned you probably want your TA on the low side to help keep your pH down anyways.  Skip the alk increaser, stick with muriatic acid and get that pH into range.

tony and Nitro's advice is sound.  I would also suggest ignoring hardness until you can maintain a good pH.  I would also suggest using a scale/stain product until you have everything balanced.  As tony mentioned, high TA or pH can cause calcium precipitating out.  The scale products are supposed to keep it in solution.

While muriatic acid (HCl) maybe an appropriate tool for this, remember that it is a very caustic chemical.  Make sure you have a good procedure in place, and use safety tools like gloves, goggles, etc.  

[ndabunka]

tony and Nitro's advice is sound.  I would also suggest ignoring hardness until you can maintain a good pH.  I would also suggest using a scale/stain product until you have everything balanced.  As tony mentioned, high TA or pH can cause calcium precipitating out.  The scale products are supposed to keep it in solution.

While muriatic acid (HCl) maybe an appropriate tool for this, remember that it is a very caustic chemical.  Make sure you have a good procedure in place, and use safety tools like gloves, goggles, etc.  

1.  It would be in error to "ignore hardness".  Rather, it is ESSENTIAL to get the hardness right BEFORE adjusting any "fine tuning".

2. Using Baking Soda is also an error (as it increases both PH AND Alk at the same time).  Rather, go to a Home Depot and/or Lowes and get PH up (Sodium Bi-Carbonate).  That will allow you the ability to raise PH without also raising Alk (mistakenly).

3.  Muratic Acid is good but it is also the counter to the Baking Soda so as others have said, the OP is simply "chasing his tail" when he alternates these ESPECIALLY if his hardness levels aren't correct.

4.  At this point, I don't really know what the OP has done to their water (Total dissolved solids are now VERY likely quite high which would also contribute to difficulty stablizing their water conditioning).

5. So.... Dump and re-start.  Get Hardness levels (Calcium right) FIRST and completely IGNORE ANY PH/ALK levels.

6.  Bring PH up using Soda Ash (Sodium Bi-Carbonate) slowly (over a day or two.

easy-peezy

[gadfly]

1.  It would be in error to "ignore hardness".  Rather, it is ESSENTIAL to get the hardness right BEFORE adjusting any "fine tuning".
2. Using Baking Soda is also an error (as it increases both PH AND Alk at the same time).  Rather, go to a Home Depot and/or Lowes and get PH up (Sodium Bi-Carbonate).  That will allow you the ability to raise PH without also raising Alk (mistakenly).
3.  Muratic Acid is good but it is also the counter to the Baking Soda so as others have said, the OP is simply "chasing his tail" when he alternates these ESPECIALLY if his hardness levels aren't correct.
4.  At this point, I don't really know what the OP has done to their water (Total dissolved solids are now VERY likely quite high which would also contribute to difficulty stablizing their water conditioning).
5. So.... Dump and re-start.  Get Hardness levels (Calcium right) FIRST and completely IGNORE ANY PH/ALK levels.
6.  Bring PH up using Soda Ash (Sodium Bi-Carbonate) slowly (over a day or two.
easy-peezy

I am sorry to have to jump in a disagreement, with my third post... but I dispute all of this post, and in my opinion, is bad advice.  

First of all, Sodium Bicarbonate is baking soda.  Soda Ash has only one carbonate.  Regardless, both raise both pH and TA... the only difference is that Soda Ash has less effect on TA.  It doesn't matter, because brian's problem is high pH, and any carbonate is going to continue to raise pH.

Second, adding calcium at this point risks scale, which is why I suggest a scale/stain product until the water is balanced, and the way to balance high pH water is to start adding acid.  In my opinion, Mr. Bunka's advice would be the one who have you "chasing your tail"

Follow tony, Nitro and Steve's advice, and you will have the water in shape in no time.
  

[brian_tr]

I have been been chasing my tail.  Start to get  ph in than ak low.  Add ak increaser than ph high.  Done this 3 times now.  When I get the ph in the ak is pretty low.  I have my ak at around 100 now and ph is high.  Will just let set for a week and see where it ends up.  Is it worst to have high ph or low ak?

[gadfly]

Get the pH in.  Although the "book" suggest to address TA first, it''s primary value in water balance is, as a buffer to pH... so if you try to manage at the same time as pH, the tail never ends.  My high pH/ high TA water creeps up, unless I keep the TA below 80, so I don't worry about it and keep hitting the acid to get the pH down... until my water finally starts running low on both.  Only then will I get out the baking soda or soda ash, depending which is needed.   As said several times, I would not touch calcium hardness until the rest of the balance components have been addressed, and hold.   In my opinion, given the alloys that are used in today's spa's, calcium is probably an over-rated component of water balance.

[tony]

I agree with drewbunker.  High or low pH is what can be problematic to your spa.  TA keeps pH stable.  A lower TA may be what you need to keep your pH down.  My water is most stable when the TA is in the 60-80 range.  Even a TA down around 50 may work for you.

Don't play with the calcium until you get your pH in line.  I also agree that it is not as important in todays modern spas and suggest to keep it on the low end of acceptable.