Where does Cal Spas stack up?

[Water Boy]

That may be the case on Softub. I havent see one in about ten years

I know for a fact that ALL Thermospas are TP, as well as Clearwater spas, fwiw!!

Also, I have nothing against this report, as I think it is a good thing. I just called it a Gospel report as you are acting like that is what it is.

[Chas]

By the way, I am a Softub Dealer and there is nothing about the tub that is TP. It is as fully foamed as any tub can be.

I was a Softub dealer many years ago. In fact, I was one of the first Softub dealers north of Los Angeles as the company got it's feet under it.

The tubs are about five or six inches thick, and are made of foam. The plumbing is embedded in that foam, so the plumbing only benefits from about an inch or two of insulation from the outside. However, that never seemed to be a point of any great heat loss when I was running them.

Most FF tubs have quite a bit more foam insulation than that, but in the various discussions I have had with engineers and experts in insulation I have found that 3 to 4 inches seems to be the point of diminishing return - that is, more foam doesn't make enough difference by itself to be worth bothering with. I think that is why Arctic tubs seem to do well  - they have what looks to be around four inches on the sides, and that or more on the bottom. I know they have an air gap all around the back of the tub, but they act more like a FF tub with a heat recycling advantage.

I will be interested to see how Softub deals with the CEC requirements, since they use the jet pump to heat. That means that the jet pump comes on full blast every time the thermostat calls for heat.

As a current dealer, how do your customers find the new Softubs to compare in energy consumption to a more conventional full foam tub? I know the comparison is hardly fair given the fact that not all FF tubs are going to be equal, but generally speaking, are you Softub customers happy with the energy bills they get after having the tub awhile? Do you have anyone who replaced an old hard tub for a Softub?


 8-)

[Water Boy]

Chas,

Thanks for the reply. Can I ask what you were talking about when you said that Arctic Spas have an air gap all around the back of the tub.  :-?

Not sure what you meant by that.

[Spatech_tuo]

 
Just for clarification, this is no "Gospel California Report". Like it or not, it is soon to be the law of the land in California and if the predictions are correct, dozens of other states across the county in the near future.

After seeing the list my reaction is just being on the list doesn't mean you're equal to the others on that same list. There are a few brands there that I would avoid in part because I don't trust their energy efficiency in the first place. I'm not sure if it’s a matter of self reporting accuracy or maybe the standard isn't so tough in initially but I also think this is a great starting point.

[James]

Hey Chas,

Our Softub policy is such that if a client buys a Softub and decides within 90 days that he/she wants a Caldera, we will buy the Softub back for what they paid for it and credit that amount towards the Caldera purchase.

So far it is a policy that has worked well.

If it seems I am a little overly sensitive with some of the things I hear/see in this forum, please forgive.

We just returned from a county fair and lived through the rough and tumble spa wars that sometimes break out at a fair. Every spa company out there was the "biggest, oldest, strongest best warranted most energy efficient spa in the entire universe".

The team at Phoenix displayed a swim spa that was 3200 gallons. The spa was as hollow as a chocolate Easter bunny. They quoted potential buyers an energy consumption of $32.00 a month. Sad part is that I'm sure some buyers believed them.

It was day after day of gross exaggeration, unsubstantiated superiority and complete silliness. One client asked me if it was true that a blue hot tub was more energy efficient then a green one.

After 20 years in the industry so much has changed. At the same time, so little has changed.

[Chas]

Chas,

Thanks for the reply. Can I ask what you were talking about when you said that Arctic Spas have an air gap all around the back of the tub.  :-?

Not sure what you meant by that.

This is from the Arctic web site - and it shows how they have a very thick layer of foam. They just don't put the foam on the back of the shell, nor do they encapsulate the plumbing with foam. This is for several reasons from what I have read on the Arctic site as well as what Tom has posted here -

Better access to plumbing to keep a minor repair minor, allows heat transfer from equipment to water, and protects the equipment in the event of a power outage. How did I do??

 8-)

[James]

After seeing the list my reaction is just being on the list doesn't mean you're equal to the others on that same list. There are a few brands there that I would avoid in part because I don't trust their energy efficiency in the first place. I'm not sure if it’s a matter of self reporting accuracy or maybe the standard isn't so tough in initially but I also think this is a great starting point.

I agree T U O. Even within the list, some spas have higher R ratings and some have lower. Same goes for the cover. All things are not equal. While I would not have every spa listed, I also would never have a spa that was NOT on list.

I am all for this type of 3rd party energy approval (of course every tub I sell is approved)

[Chas]

Hey Chas,

Our Softub policy is such that if a client buys a Softub and decides within 90 days that he/she wants a Caldera, we will buy the Softub back for what they paid for it and credit that amount towards the Caldera purchase.

So far it is a policy that has worked well.

If it seems I am a little overly sensitive with some of the things I hear/see in this forum, please forgive.

Your posts seem fine to me. Thanks for checkin' though, and thanks for the info on the trade-in policy.

As far as the Fair - I did a home show back in March. It was the first one I have done in over a decade. And most likely the last one. Same thing happened to us. We sold two tubs. I don't think I paid for the gas it took to get the tubs on site, let alone space rent, advertising, rent-a-shark (we may have had some of the same guys), Motel rooms, etc.

 8-)

[Water Boy]

You did great!! I just completly misunderstood what you were talking about, but I clearly understand now. It's the Monday after the Fourth of July. Still a little foggy in the head after the holiday weekend!!

[Water Boy]

I agree T U O. Even within the list, some spas have higher R ratings and some have lower. Same goes for the cover. All things are not equal. While I would not have every spa listed, I also would never have a spa that was NOT on list.

I am all for this type of 3rd party energy approval (of course every tub I sell is approved)

That’s fine and dandy James that you wouldn't buy a spa that isn’t on that list, but that is clearly just your opinion. But, just so customers know, just because a spa is on that list doesn't mean they are a quality built spa. Nor does it mean that if a spa isn't on that list that it isn’t a quality built spa. I am sure that works well for you in your sales tactics as the spas you sell are on the list, but just because a spa is included in this list doesn’t mean they are a top tier spa. That is just my opinion. There are several spas on the list that you refer to that people on here all day long warn customers to stay away from, so I don't know that you should be preaching that if a spa isn’t on this list, it isn’t a good one. I know you didn't say that word for word, but that is what you are implying.

This is what I mean when you refer to this as Gospel. I know it means a lot to you, and it is a good thing, but after reading the list, I am not so sure about it.

[hottubdan]

That’s fine and dandy James that you wouldn't buy a spa that isn’t on that list, but that is clearly just your opinion. But, just so customers know, just because a spa is on that list doesn't mean they are a quality built spa. Nor does it mean that if a spa isn't on that list that it isn’t a quality built spa. I am sure that works well for you in your sales tactics as the spas you sell are on the list, but just because a spa is included in this list doesn’t mean they are a top tier spa. That is just my opinion. There are several spas on the list that you refer to that people on here all day long warn customers to stay away from, so I don't know that you should be preaching that if a spa isn’t on this list, it isn’t a good one. I know you didn't say that word for word, but that is what you are implying.

This is what I mean when you refer to this as Gospel. I know it means a lot to you, and it is a good thing, but after reading the list, I am not so sure about it.

However, when it does become the law of our land, California, if a spa is not on the list it will be illegal to deliver that spa in CA.  It does not rank quality, simply a self reported measure of energy consumption under certain circumstances.

The enforcement is going to be interesting.

1st question is what are they going to do about all the spas not on the list sold by valid CA manufacturers and dealers.
2nd question is what are they going to do about the out of state Internet sales organizations.
3rd issue is that I am aware of is they are going to wait for consumers to complain about something on the list that does not perform as expected.  Then what?

[James]

That’s fine and dandy James that you wouldn't buy a spa that isn’t on that list, but that is clearly just your opinion. But, just so customers know, just because a spa is on that list doesn't mean they are a quality built spa. Nor does it mean that if a spa isn't on that list that it isn’t a quality built spa. I am sure that works well for you in your sales tactics as the spas you sell are on the list, but just because a spa is included in this list doesn’t mean they are a top tier spa. That is just my opinion. There are several spas on the list that you refer to that people on here all day long warn customers to stay away from, so I don't know that you should be preaching that if a spa isn’t on this list, it isn’t a good one. I know you didn't say that word for word, but that is what you are implying.

This is what I mean when you refer to this as Gospel. I know it means a lot to you, and it is a good thing, but after reading the list, I am not so sure about it.

In the very 1st sentence of my very 1st response to this thread I wrote "While I'd never recommend, sell or own a Cal Spa, nor make comment to the actual efficiency of Cal or Arctic, I will point out something that Cal DOES have. "

I went on to explain how Cal was CEC certified while Arctic was not.

Tom had suggested with the use of a 7 year old study that Arctic was more energy efficient than a Cal Spa. Despite the good, bad or ugly of Cal, we don’t really know if that’s true. I suggest the CEC Title 20 list might be a better indication of the work Cal has done then what that old report might suggest.

I hope no one took this as a recommendation of Cal Spas.

And I agree with you. The list as it stands today is a very short list and I can only assume many of the long lasting, well built brands that are missing from the list will very shortly be added to it.

My question to the Sundance’s, Jacuzzis, Marquees and others is why have they not been certified yet?

As a shopper and consumer, that is the question I’d ask myself.

Why have some brands met this standard while others have not met it?

Are they unable to meet the standards or have they not had them tested?

If not tested, why not?

There has to be a reason.

The reality of this state mandate is that regardless of any manufactures understanding or agreement with it, it is very shortly going to be an enforceable requirement from the state and a tub will have to be certified in order to be sold in the state.

[Water Boy]

James, HTD or Chas,

Do you know when this officially goes into effect in the state of California as law??

[James]

James, HTD or Chas,

Do you know when this officially goes into effect in the state of California as law??

From an article in Pool & Spa News dated 2/15/08 written by Jim Lakely:

          The CEC is serious about pulling the plug on what has amounted to be a grace period for the industry, stated Gary Fernstrom, senior program engineer at Pacific Gas & Electric's headquarters in San Francisco.

           "Between the middle of this year and the end of the year, the hammer will fall" Fernstrom Said. “At this point, manufactures need to get involved.... so we can reach some sort of agreement, or the CEC is going to enforce the original (Title 20) regulation"

            Enforcing Title 20 would leave a number of spa manufactures out of the California market place. Moreover, other states are lining up behind the new energy efficiency mandates. Oregon, for one, will require hot tubs to meet California's standards on Sept 1, 2009.

This is the future of our spa indusrty folks, like it or not.

[Summitman]

First of all, once the Arctic spa line is finally certified the proof will be in the pudding that they are just as efficient, if not more than many already tested. And I would argue that the results will be impressive.  Until then I suppose many can say they arent approved by a certain agency and arent efficient yada, yada, yada.  Keep in mind that just because a spa line isnt approved on the list it doesnt mean that the spa line has been denied or even tested yet.  These things take time and I would imagine coming from Canada does nothing but delay the process.  

I would like to ask since James keeps bringing up the point that the Arctic study is seven years old, once a spa or model passes the testing, are they retested every year to be up to James standards of a proper test?  Or, once they pass the test is it end of story?  

Again their isnt much I can say that would prove Arctics are as efficient since they havent been approved yet, but once they finally go through with the testing Arctics will no doubt pass.  Those that question that point either havent seen an Arctic spa in person, or flat out have to compete against Arctic daily and have other motives.  They are very impressive and perform well in many different climates.  

Just my .02 cents.