help with switching over to bromine

[TubsAndCues]

Best explanation I've heard so far T&C.

I use bromine and find it easier. I spent 8 days in Daytona (Bike Week), home for three then 8 more in Ft Lauderdale (spring break with my daughter). Never touched the tub, came home opened up to perfect water.

Thanks, Dan!

I'd like to take all the credit, but like I said I had to go to the source book so it would make sense!  The bonus to doing it was my employees just learned all the technical answers to the questions they've been explaining in layman's terms for the last few months.  

[Spatech_tuo]

I disagree with Spatech in that you are converting chlorine to bromine even though there is chlorine in bromine pucks. You will not have more chlorine as chlorine is a small % of bromine. I think he's thinking that bromine should be 3-5ppm whereas chlorine is 1-3ppm. Being that bromine is not stright chlorine, the result is actually less and the bromine salts is what is sanitizing.

As for the reason most chemical companies put chlorine in their bromine pucks, when HOCL comes in contact with a bromamine, it regenerates it back to HOBr.  

I've given hundreds of people tutorials on water care suing both methods (not that I’m a chem expert, just someone with a good deal of practical experience). The issue here is not which is better. This poster stated a problem with a reaction to chlorine. Now I know when many of us read such a statement we may think there is a good chance that is not the real issue but I'm going to assume that is the true cause of the problem and merely was pointing out that the bromine pucks they want to switch to probably have a good amount of chlorine in them, about 25% typically if I'm not mistaken. So I disagree with Steve when he says that "I disagree with Spatech in that you are converting chlorine to bromine even though there is chlorine in bromine pucks. You will not have more chlorine as chlorine is a small % of bromine. ". I believe you'll on average have much more chlorine in the water in a bromine cared for spa at any given point in soaking time (not counting the time after you add chlorine where we know it spikes and then dissipates).
 
If the chlorine were not an issue you can argue which is preferred but if someone is trying to avoid sitting in a spa with chlorine then switching to standard Bromine tabs is not going to help IMO. If their real problem is with Ph then switching methods also won't matter.

[TubsAndCues]

I've given hundreds of people tutorials on water care suing both methods (not that I’m a chem expert, just someone with a good deal of practical experience). The issue here is not which is better. This poster stated a problem with a reaction to chlorine. Now I know when many of us read such a statement we may think there is a good chance that is not the real issue but I'm going to assume that is the true cause of the problem and merely was pointing out that the bromine pucks they want to switch to probably have a good amount of chlorine in them, about 25% typically if I'm not mistaken. So I disagree with Steve when he says that "I disagree with Spatech in that you are converting chlorine to bromine even though there is chlorine in bromine pucks. You will not have more chlorine as chlorine is a small % of bromine. ". I believe you'll on average have much more chlorine in the water in a bromine cared for spa at any given point in soaking time (not counting the time after you add chlorine where we know it spikes and then dissipates).
 
If the chlorine were not an issue you can argue which is preferred but if someone is trying to avoid sitting in a spa with chlorine then switching to standard Bromine tabs is not going to help IMO. If their real problem is with Ph then switching methods also won't matter.

I understand where you're coming from.  If we assume that pH is not the issue, but it's from some other chemical reason, chlorine itself is very likely not the problem.  

What very well could be the problem is the chloramines, not the chlorine.  Hypochlorous acid will not affect the majority of the public.  In fact, the last study I saw (and I can't remember where I read it) less than 1% of all people are allergic to chlorine.  However, most people will be affected by chloramines, primarily by skin, eye and respiratory irritation.

As far as bromine tabs having a good deal of chlorine in them, the couple of different ones we sell or have sold over the year are no more than 10% chlorine.  

Lets assume people using chlorine are keeping a 1 to 3 parts per million (ppm) level in their tubs, and bromine users are keeping a 3 to 5 ppm in their tubs.  Both are the recommended levels.

If 10% of your bromine is chlorine and hasn't been used up by regenerating bromamines back to HOBr, then at most you would have a .3 to .5 chlorine reading in your tub, which is less than half of the least amount of chlorine you should have in a chlorine system.  Even if you had bromine tabs that were 25% chlorine, you would still never max out with more than 1.25ppm of chlorine.

Mathematically, you could never have more chlorine in your tub from bromine tablets than by using straight chlorine unless you kept a ridiculously high level of bromine in the tub AND the chlorine was not coming into contact with any of the bromamines or HOBr molecules.

Like I said at the beginning, I understand how you came to your conclusion, but I hope this clears it up.

And more importantly I hope UKowner got the info she was looking for.  

Let me know if this answers any questions or simply mucks up the hot tub water even more!  

[ukowner]

Just wanted to clear things up a little about my husbands skin.In the winter months he has a skin complaints which starts when the temps get low here normally January and will not clear until temps go back up which should have happened by now.This has happened most of his life,eczema related we think.

We have had our tub since last july and he has used it ever day some times twice a day when we have been home with no problems using chlorine. As soon as this skin problem stared up in Jan as it does every year soaking in the tub has become a problem for him,drying the skin out even more.He would soak and about 7 hours later he would have a reaction,more itchy and even more red,the tub DOES NOT cause the skin complaint but does AGGREVATE it. We tried aquaclara kit at which you add monthly now this worked well for him with no reaction, but had some water problems after 2 weeks and  at $40 a month it's very expensive,I know aquaclara uses bromine that's why i was asking questions about changing over.We have read before that bromine is easier on the skin.What is the point to having a hot tub if you cant use it in the best months!

Dawn

[Steve]

Well that does make a difference...

As with any skin condition, this needs to be treated first. A hot tub in most cases, regardless of the sanitizer or products used, will irritate a skin condition if entering the spa with it not fully healed.

I know this isn't what you want to hear but I doubt any product will help until this is treated medically first.

Your Doctor can best answer the question on how to treat it and once fully healed, he may be able to enjoy it once again Dawn.

[Cyn]

I agree with Steve.  

HOT water is very, very hard on your skin, chemically free or not.  

[ukowner]

Thanks Steve,

You are forgetting one thing.....he's a man! and trying to get a man to go see the dr is like trying to get blood out of a stone...lol

[hottubdan]

BaquaSpa or Soft Soak would be a much better solution.  Bromine and chlorine are both harsh and drying to sensitive skin.

[windsurfdog]

If you are adding chlorine only after soaking, what happens if you have gone 4 or 5 days or a week without using the spa? Obviously you are now bathing in water with a zero sanitizer reading which is not recommended right?[/i]

I must be missing something...

Steve, here's what you're missing.  I'll speak for myself but I'll bet most other dichlor users would agree:

If I miss a couple of days soaking, no problem with water...clear and fresh.  Longer than that, I will open and drop a couple of tsp. in and circulate for 10 min. or so...good for a couple more days, if I don't want to soak.  Otherwise, if I plan on being out of town for a week or so, I'll dump up to 3 tbsp or so in, let it circulate with the cover open for 30 min. or so, then close it up and leave...and come back to fresh water.  Longer than a week or so, I've got friends lined up to soak and dose in my absence.  

This is really more difficult to explain than to execute...and it wasn't hard to explain... 8-)

[Steve]

Thanks Steve,

You are forgetting one thing.....he's a man! and trying to get a man to go see the dr is like trying to get blood out of a stone...lol

Ahhh yeh...gotcha!

Steve, here's what you're missing.  I'll speak for myself but I'll bet most other dichlor users would agree:

If I miss a couple of days soaking, no problem with water...clear and fresh.  Longer than that, I will open and drop a couple of tsp. in and circulate for 10 min. or so...good for a couple more days, if I don't want to soak.  Otherwise, if I plan on being out of town for a week or so, I'll dump up to 3 tbsp or so in, let it circulate with the cover open for 30 min. or so, then close it up and leave...and come back to fresh water.  Longer than a week or so, I've got friends lined up to soak and dose in my absence.  

This is really more difficult to explain than to execute...and it wasn't hard to explain... 8-)

Yeah OK I get that as it's no different really than bromine other than the fact that if you go 4 or 5 days without use and then want to use it, you are going to add chlorine 10-15 minutes prior then get in right? Then, in turn, you are soaking with a decent chlorine residual (as it should be) even though some may call it "chlorine soup" but again, it's no different other than the fact that I have a dispenser maintain a consitant reading in my tub without spoon feeding.

I really do understand both systems but with that said, I can't see how a chlorine system can be easier at all. Is it better? That's up for debate but it certainly isn't easier. The issue with your system is that you are continually fluctuating your sanitizer and providing an environment for cloudy or foamy water by having a zero sanitizer reading between applications. A bromine system will maintain a steady reading (unless out of pucks) or perhaps an even higher reading than need be (depending on the quality of the puck and how compressed they are) which is fine by me. I'd rather have too high of a sanitizer (especially with bromine) than a zero reading which can cause problems.

So which sounds easier?

Maybe we should start a new thread with this topic?

[windsurfdog]

I really do understand both systems but with that said, I can't see how a chlorine system can be easier at all.

Not debating effectiveness or ease...I just think it is incorrect to address chlorine dosing as being more difficult than bromine...just as I would debate the premise that bromine is more difficult than chlorine.  That said, if I had a spa, say, at a rental property, it would be bromine all the way.

[BauerN]

Just want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread.

This has been one of the most educational to me since I started lurking here.

Great info, great explanations.

 

[TubsAndCues]

Definitely agree, this has been one of my favorite threads as of late, not only to post on but to read as well.

Steve may have a good idea of starting a new thread on chlorine vs bromine, but while I would enjoy it, I'm betting it'd end up in the dead horse pile soon enough.  Maybe we should start the thread of what each of us see as the pros and cons to different systems.

Ah, maybe not, it could end up being educational!  

[wewannahottub]

Well that does make a difference...

As with any skin condition, this needs to be treated first. A hot tub in most cases, regardless of the sanitizer or products used, will irritate a skin condition if entering the spa with it not fully healed.

I know this isn't what you want to hear but I doubt any product will help until this is treated medically first.

Your Doctor can best answer the question on how to treat it and once fully healed, he may be able to enjoy it once again Dawn.

Well said and 100% agreed!!  Check with your dermatologist!  Good luck!

[wewannahottub]

Thanks Steve,

You are forgetting one thing.....he's a man! and trying to get a man to go see the dr is like trying to get blood out of a stone...lol

well then, tough!! let him scratch!!  When he is uncomfortable enough, he'll go.