Hotspring changing the rules again!

[windsurfdog]

Nope, just speaking the truth and I make no apologies for it.
I mean Watkins wants to build a lower priced spa line and one of the ways to lower the price is to use metal and tp . Looks like they used Master as a roll model for a how to build a cheap spa if you don't like that, than take it up with Watkins.

I'm still trying to understand your reasoning for inferring that anyone who might have anything positive to say about MS is an apologist.  I guess, with your reasoning, that anyone who says anything a positive about HS, SD, Arctic, Marquis, etc. is an apologist and I just don't agree that this is true.

Master as a roll (role) model?  That's what Watkins is saying?  That doesn't sound like the Watkins company leadership I know.

As I was enjoying another wonderful soak in my LSX this a.m., I thought about you and your comments for a fleeting moment.  A couple of observations:

I hope you have invested in a good blood pressure checking device and I hope you use it regularly...harboring contempt for MS cannot be good for your health...

Secondly, I sincerely hope that whatever spa you enjoy brings as much troublefree pleasure to you as my LSX brings to me and my soaking friends.  July will be 4 years of ownership and, so far, not one service call.  Plus, my estimates reflect that with the amount of usage my LSX experiences, my monthly electrical cost is about $30-$35/month.  Of course being in N. Fla is a benefit for any tub when considering electrical usage.

Mendo, I believe you would serve the readers of this forum better if you would remove the MS burr that seems to boil to the surface upon occasion...it really does nothing but reflect your contempt.

Have a great day and check that blood pressure... 8-)

[Mendocino101]

Windy your the same old hypocrite you always have been and always will be. In the past I have gone out of my way so many times not to even mention Masters name years ago you accused me of lying about they're well known and phony shows. flat out lying is what I was accused of by you and never once after it has been well documented about thier validity have you ever apologised. Your happy with your tub good for you. But Master spas as a company has hurt the spa industry more than any other company and I am not alone my feelings about this. For you to read this entire thread and find one sentence, one sentence and that is what you comment on says more about you and your grudge towards me, so go take a good long soak and don't forget your meds.

Also if any tech here wants to chime I am confident that they will tell you Masters fit and finish and attention to detail is at best poor. Others here post about master and a mild or no response from you and nothing personal, me I make any comment and your in your attack mode.

[East_TX_Spa]

[windsurfdog]

Windy your the same old hypocrite you always have been and always will be.

Good old fashioned name calling...welcome to the second grade.

In the past I have gone out of my way so many times not to even mention Masters name years ago you accused me of lying about they're well known and phony shows. flat out lying is what I was accused of by you and never once after it has been well documented about thier validity have you ever apologised.

I encourage any readers of this post to search for all posts between Mendo and myself and judge accordingly...I'll stand by each and every one...especially the ones where I DID NOT accuse Mendo of lying...which is EVERY POST by my recollection.

And now, after being associated with "Master apologists", Mendo claims I have never apologized...?...ok...which is it, Mendo?  You've got me confused now.  Either way, I don't understand why I should apologize for anything...maybe you think I should apologize for buying an MS spa?  NO WAY!  One of the best investiments for my and my family's quality of life I've ever made.  I just don't get you, Mendo.

Your happy with your tub good for you. But Master spas as a company has hurt the spa industry more than any other company and I am not alone my feelings about this.

I'll bet Jim the Jim is pissed at this statement...  

Please gather up all your buddies to back up your claim.  And don't forget to go back and read exactly how I feel about the assertions you make re: MS' business practices...since my thoughts on the subject have already been well documented in archived posts, there is no need for me to reiterate them now.  Make up what you wish but I suggest you deal with facts of what was written instead of depending upon your recollection of what was written.

For you to read this entire thread and find one sentence, one sentence and that is what you comment on says more about you and your grudge towards me, so go take a good long saok and don't forget your meds.

I'm quite sorry any of this had to be rehashed.  I would have said nothing had you not once again, as you have many times in the past, slung mud and inuendo for no other reason than to vent your contempt...or fish for a rise from me.  Give it a rest.

[windsurfdog]

Also if any tech here wants to chime I am confident that they will tell you Masters fit and finish and attention to detail is at best poor.

Ok, now what is your point?

Others here post about master and a mild or no response from you and nothing personal, me I make any comment and your in your attack mode.

Could it be you that are the only one who feels compelled to resort to elementary school name calling?  Well, you betcha...

Funny how all of this would never have appeared were it not for your continued "apologists" comments.  Please do us both and everyone who reads this forum a favor and stick to the facts or state your opinions without resorting to childish behavior.

[Mendocino101]

Good old fashioned name calling...welcome to the second grade.


I encourage any readers of this post to search for all posts between Mendo and myself and judge accordingly...I'll stand by each and every one...especially the ones where I DID NOT accuse Mendo of lying...which is EVERY POST by my recollection.

And now, after being associated with "Master apologists", Mendo claims I have never apologized...?...ok...which is it, Mendo?  You've got me confused now.  Either way, I don't understand why I should apologize for anything...maybe you think I should apologize for buying an MS spa?  NO WAY!  One of the best investiments for my and my family's quality of life I've ever made.  I just don't get you, Mendo.


I'll bet Jim the Jim is pissed at this statement...  

Please gather up all your buddies to back up your claim.  And don't forget to go back and read exactly how I feel about the assertions you make re: MS' business practices...since my thoughts on the subject have already been well documented in archived posts, there is no need for me to reiterate them now.  Make up what you wish but I suggest you deal with facts of what was written instead of depending upon your recollection of what was written.


I'm quite sorry any of this had to be rehashed.  I would have said nothing had you not once again, as you have many times in the past, slung mud and inuendo for no other reason than to vent your contempt...or fish for a rise from me.  Give it a rest.

Sure Windy your statement above about 2nd grade simply shows the genuine hypocrite that you are but your ego just won't allow you to see it. As speaking to me about blood pressure and like is some how different.

 I am not sure anyone wants to go back to dig up 4 years of posts but if they do, have at it I am sure they will find along history of you apologizing for Masters sales practices and accusing me of lying about their now famous traveling shows. You seem to forget that when I went to the Master show it was to try and find a spa I was not in the business. What you seem to forget is when I just looking and asked here about these shows I did not even mention their name as I wanted a real reaction as it was all new to me. What you also fail to recall is it was only after having many others share their experience about the shows that you begrudgingly acknowledged that they may exsit but within the same breath trying to still make a claim about them being a great product. But for some reason that only person you want to single out regarding them is me. If you feel the need have it.

But all of this is pointless anyway. This thread was a about a cheaper way to build a spa and referencing Master as one who builds like this is certainly relevant. And I am oh so sorry if that raises your blood pressure Sir Windy one.

[Mendocino101]

Ok, now what is your point?

quote]

Its a simple one really that Master makes a poor product.

[Chris_H]

To keep this on topic, the spa Stuart is discussing will be full foam.

[Spiderman]

To keep this on topic, the spa Stuart is discussing will be full foam.

Who???        

[Mendocino101]

Yes it is Tech,

Heres the bottom line for me. Over the years Windy has IN MY OPINION been apologist for Master Spas. When he and I got our adversarial relationship started it was over these shows that he basically told me I was lying about, I remember in one post he used the phrase something being from Missouri and to show him. As time went on and more and more people shared their experience regarding these shows he had no choice but to acknowledge their existence all be it begrudgingly. But he seemed to always take a hostile position towards me singularly. I mean its  simple statement of fact that in the past and not here on this forum as much as others that those who like Master defended their build process as being better when those who did not said they built in the manner that they do as a cost saving measure. Now with this thread it is alluded that Watkins wants to make a lower priced spa line and one way considered is to use the TP/Metal build medthod...hummmm who else builds in this way Master, so my point was it simply surports all those who have said over the years this is a cheaper way to make a spa. But in the whole text of this thread Windy finds one sentence and attacks me over it. Speaking about blood pressure and burrs in my saddle. I have big enough stones to admit when I am wrong and to stand behind what I say if I feel I am right. I think he is lacking in this department, the ability to put his ego aside and say OK perhaps I was wrong about a few things and move on is something he lacks the abilty to do.

Tech I am not sure why you removed your post but you were right the meaning for apologist is
a·pol·o·gist       ([ch601]-p[ch335]l'[ch601]-j[ch301]st)  Pronunciation Key  
n.   A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

Not someone who offers an apology.

[East_TX_Spa]

For Ya'lls Information off the BBB website:

Name: Master Spas, Inc.

SPECIAL NOTE: According to information provided to the BBB by Master Spas, this company's former checking account has been compromised. International Lottery scammers are falsely sending letters enclosing a check that appears to come from this company. The company confirms that it has nothing to do with this scheme. The ploy actually is part of a counterfeit check scheme in the guise of a lottery winnings notification.

Don't fall for scams!

Terminator
 

[cwstnsko]

I'm not sure it's relevent to the original topic being discussed, but at least one person posted some facts and data above that seemed to indicate that metal was not a very cost effective material to substitute for wood when building the structure of a spa.  

Another interesting data point related to Master Spas and their use of metal is that Master Spas has three product lines of spas.  The entry level is the Legacy Whirpool line which is full wood frame construction, The mid-line is Down East which they refer to as hybrid metal-wood (metal corners) that can be upgraded to full metal for about $400 list.  The Master Spas Legend series is their upper line which uses the full metal frame.  I would find it an odd marketing technique to use what is described here as the most expensive material (full wood) for the least expensive line.  

I've seen references to using metal to reduce manufacturing costs, but based on my experience with the cost of materials, the only way this could be true would be if a company was trying to get by using the cheesy tin studs like they use in commercial construction.  The Master Spa Legend Tubs I looked at had a welded structural steel frame that appeard to be powder coated.

I don't know if I'm an apologist for Master Spas or not, I own one of thier products, but don't tout it as equal to or better than anything else. I won't defend their phony shows and I'm not really interested in discussing the damage they've done to the spa indstry, but I am a Mechanical Engineer by degree who works as an Industrial Engineer (not in the spa industry) and I did go to one of the phony shows and look at all of the Master Spas products and their construction from an Engineering point of view.  My somewhat educated perspective was that they did appear to use more expensive materials and processes in the manufacture of their more expensive line.  

Just my thoughts, not trying to pick a fight with anyone.

It's about time to go enjoy a good soak

Chris W

[Vanguard]

Wow, did this thread ever take a left turn.

[windsurfdog]

For all readers of this thread,

I apologize for posting 1 simple 1 sentence observation (Mendo's saddle burr) in my 1st post.  That would have been the end of it had it not been proven true.

Please note who is calling who a liar without substantiation.  Please note who is resorting to adolescent debate tactics.

My apologies for the left turn.  Back on topic.

I really don't see where there is a distinct advantage to either metal frames or TP.  I think it is more a design philosophy that, when designed and constructed well, produces an energy efficient spa that holds up under the test of time.  Coleman, MS and maybe others approach this similarly...Arctic approaches it differently but just as effectively.  That's why I feel it is more important for spa buyers to purchase a spa from a major manufacturer and judge the spa based upon therapy provided first, spa retailer reputation second and purchase cost third.  All other discussion would be limited to forums like this.

Should Watkins produce a metal framed, TP tub, it is possible that they might be experimenting with a design philosophy change.  And, if they do, I bet it will be an energy efficient spa that will last the test of time.

[hottubdan]

Also if any tech here wants to chime I am confident that they will tell you Masters fit and finish and attention to detail is at best poor.

If this is true (and I believe it is) (saw MS at a home show yesterday...saw the wavy skirts) then how can you accuse Watkins of using Master as a role model for a hypothetical spa line that has not been released?