Hotspring changing the rules again!

[Summitman]

This is true but both have been mentioned as less expensive way to build a spa. The combo being the cheaper way to build than wood or full foam.

Just for info reasons, Arctics way of building is not a cost saving mode.  Im not saying that you are implying that, but I want the facts straight that Arctic didnt choose TP for cost saving measures.  As a matter of fact I would guess that Arctics extra labor and materials cost on increasing the thickness of fiberglass on the backside of the acrylic shell would cost more than just filling the cabinet full of foam.  FYI

[TubsAndCues]

I have to go back to something that is bugging me.  And that is the subject of this thread and the initial post.  

1.  How is Watkins changing the rules...again?  The only rules I've ever seen them change is to set the bar higher for the entire industry.  Of course that is an opinion.  I, for one, think this industry is better off because of Watkins.  Now, I also think other companies have brought much to the industry as well.

2.  I have never seen, heard or read anything from Watkins that slams TP or metal frames.  I have only seen Watkins sell why they feel their spas are superior - without slamming competition.  That does not mean that some of the dealers or their salespeople have never done it.  But I don't think you can find Watkins teaching that.  They try to sell up their lines without selling down others.

3.  The changes being discussed here have nothing to do with Hot Spring.  They have everything to do with Watkins.  Hot Spring will remain the spas they are today.  Full Foam, wood frame, high quality spas.

Vanguard hit it on the head.  Why doesn't anybody care that HotSpring dealers like myself believe 100% no bypass filtration is best, but Tiger River doesn't have it?  And no one mentioned that both HS and TR spas have 24 hour circ pumps but Solana and Hot Spots don't.  They're all part of the same family of tubs, but there are always going to be different levels of products available for anything you buy.

As far as the cheaper tub for more bling, I haven't heard about anything yet, but in some aspects it makes sense to me.  I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every person that's ever walked into my store or my booth at a show and asked for a tub with a lot of jets, a water fall, a stereo and color changing lights.  

We all know those things don't make a tub, but they do attract people to look.  I think it's like walking out to the car lot and telling the salesman you want something with tinted windows, a sunroof, a killer sound system and spinners, but to each his own.

[Mendocino101]

As far as the cheaper tub for more bling, I haven't heard about anything yet, but in some aspects it makes sense to me.  I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every person that's ever walked into my store or my booth at a show and asked for a tub with a lot of jets, a water fall, a stereo and color changing lights.  

.

Go back a few weeks and read about the new line Hot Springs looks to be bringing out. Please note I never implied this is bad in anyway. I just mentioned the TP/Metal because many people have argued that this is just a cheaper way for most to build a spa this way and if Hot Springs goal is to have a line with more bling but at a lower price point than for them to consider building them in this manner simply supports all those who have said it was cheaper to build.

[Mendocino101]

Just for info reasons, Arctics way of building is not a cost saving mode.  Im not saying that you are implying that, but I want the facts straight that Arctic didnt choose TP for cost saving measures.  As a matter of fact I would guess that Arctics extra labor and materials cost on increasing the thickness of fiberglass on the backside of the acrylic shell would cost more than just filling the cabinet full of foam.  FYI

Arctics has always seemed to distance themselves from other TP builders.

[TubsAndCues]

Go back a few weeks and read about the new line Hot Springs looks to be bringing out. Please note I never implied this is bad in anyway. I just mentioned the TP/Metal because many people have argued that this is just a cheaper way for most to build a spa this way and if Hot Springs goal is to have a line with more bling but at a lower price point than for them to consider building them in this manner simply supports all those who have said it was cheaper to build.

I never though you were saying it in a negative way.  I do think this is interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out.  

As someone said earlier, tubs like that are easy to use as an example of other ways to build a tub, and I always found HotSpring to be an easier sale when I had that type of tub on the floor to show.  

There are enough people though, like I said before, that will buy those tubs strictly based on looks and price point.

[Tom]

Arctics has always seemed to distance themselves from other TP builders.

Mendo is correct.  Many people think that anything that is not "full foam" is "thermopane", but this is not necessarily correct.

The usual concept of "thermopane" is borrowed from the window industry, where a layer of still air (or other substances, such as nitrogen) is sandwiched between two layers of glass.  In portable spas, this is usually described as a layer of air sandwiched between two thin layers of insulation, one on the shell and one inside the cabinet.  

This is NOT how Arctic Spas are constructed.  We use a 3" thick layer of polyurethane foam insulation on the inside of the cabinet, while leaving the shell uninsulated.  I believe that other manufacturers use a similar approach, and suggest this be referred to as "perimeter insulation" as distinct from "thermopane".

[Chas]

And I might add that three inches of foam insulation, whether on the shell or the cabinet, is going to do the same job of retaining heat that 'full foam' will do, if the layer is carefully applied so that there are no gaps or thin spots. There is a point of diminishing returns on foam thickness, and it seems to be just a little over three inches from what I have read and heard.

Arctic chose to put in on the cabinet, and keep the plumbing free of foam, at least mostly free of foam. Obviously some of the plumbing ends up in the foam, but the design is to keep as much of it clear as possible.

There are many other makers who put a three inch layer on the shell, encasing the plumbing while they are at it, and they do a good job of holding heat.

There are some tubs out there with an inch or less on the cabinet, and the name "Thermopane" or some such on the brochure. They don't work well for a variety of reasons, and there are plenty of folks who have posted here and on other discussion boards to back that up.

HS does many layers, all different density of foam, from the shell all the way to the cabinet, but there are structural reasons for that. There is also a great deal of sound deadening which comes from not having air chambers, and HS takes great pains to avoid air voids in the foam insulation.

The good ones work, the bad ones don't . From what I hear, Arctic works as well as HS - and that makes sense since. They both have at least three inches of foam, carefully applied to make a complete and total barrier to heat loss. What else is there to say?

 8-)

[clover]

Watkins, like any other Hot Tub manufacturer, is a profit making company and so are their many dealers.  Every dealer in this country is hoping for different things from their manufacturer so they don't have people walking out the doors and buying elsewhere.  That is all that is happening here and it will continue, as all businesss' need to increase market share and or penetration.

Imagine where Watkins would be today if they stuck to their original shell material that you could beat with a louisville slugger just to get your point across.  People still walked away and bought colorful acrylic.

Watkins, like others, considered sound systems and electronics a no-no for their Tubs, but now years later, look at what they have.

Dealers do not sell everybody that walks in their door, no not even HS.  Dealers are asking their suppliers to provide what they don't have for shoppers they don't sell.  When you didn't have water features, you followed up only to find they bought a Hot Tub with water features.  IF you don't have what they want they continue to shop until they find what they want, OR somebody that closes them.

NO ONE dealer or manufacturer has the best of everything, NO, not even Watkins.  There was a reason they begrudingly went to acrylic.  There was a reason they didn't recommend ozone.  There was a reason they added water features.  There was a reason they bought Caldera.  There was a reason they developed Solana, or even Hot Spot.  There was a reason they tried to market through Costco.  It is all about having what the shopper wants to spend his money on, and that is NOT always buying the Biggest and the Best in the Industry.  

Dealers understandably just hate seeing the money walk out the door when they do not have what the shopper is looking for, more jets, exotic lighting, or when they are looking for the "Bling".  All manufacturers ask their dealers where they are loosing sales so that they can consider having what they want.

In a single word, Marketing, or more Marketshare

[spaman--]

HS does many layers, all different density of foam, from the shell all the way to the cabinet, but there are structural reasons for that. There is also a great deal of sound deadening which comes from not having air chambers, and HS takes great pains to avoid air voids in the foam insulation. (quote from Chas)




Not to disagree but, I have worked on several HotSpring spas lately and there has been atleast a 3" void behind the shroud that goes across the spa behind the pump compartment almost the entire width if the spa. I also have 3 spas in the back with leaks from the exact same places they all have cracks beside the light fitting where you enter the spa and they all leak from the bottom of the moto massage housing. Is this common or is it coincidence. It seems almost as if there isn't enough support in the area where you step into the tub. Again not attacking the spa just asking an honest question.

[hottubdan]

HS does many layers, all different density of foam, from the shell all the way to the cabinet, but there are structural reasons for that. There is also a great deal of sound deadening which comes from not having air chambers, and HS takes great pains to avoid air voids in the foam insulation. (quote from Chas)




Not to disagree but, I have worked on several HotSpring spas lately and there has been atleast a 3" void behind the shroud that goes across the spa behind the pump compartment almost the entire width if the spa. I also have 3 spas in the back with leaks from the exact same places they all have cracks beside the light fitting where you enter the spa and they all leak from the bottom of the moto massage housing. Is this common or is it coincidence. It seems almost as if there isn't enough support in the area where you step into the tub. Again not attacking the spa just asking an honest question.

What years and what models are you dealing with?

[drewstar]

I think Stuart is just trying to start trouble.  

It's pretty much common knowledge that as Chas said, "the good ones work". Full foam done right, works and is not an issue, and the Thermal tubs, when done right also work.

I have absoltuey no doubt that Watkins could make a Themal tub that worked well. I don't see issues on how they "would sell agaisnt it" .  Both methods work when done right.   Watkins engineering and manufactuing are proven entities.

The bigger questions would be why? Changing from FF to TP would be a huge cost to a manufacturing line.   Are they going with a high end TP design to sell agaist Arctic and the like, or  are they putting out a low end budget tub under a different brand name to counter the Costco/Big Box Hydro tubs out there?

?

[Vanguard]

I think Stuart is just trying to start trouble.  

It's pretty much common knowledge that as Chas said, "the good ones work". Full foam done right, works and is not an issue, and the Thermal tubs, when done right also work.

I have absolutely no doubt that Watkins could make a Thermal tub that worked well. I don't see issues on how they "would sell against it" .  Both methods work when done right.   Watkins engineering and manufacturing are proven entities.

The bigger questions would be why? Changing from FF to TP would be a huge cost to a manufacturing line.   Are they going with a high end TP design to sell against Arctic and the like, or  are they putting out a low end budget tub under a different brand name to counter the Costco/Big Box Hydro tubs out there?

?

The "Why" is plain and simple:  To offer a less expensive spa with more "stuff."

They are NOT going be to "changing" from FF to TP.  They are just going to be offering a new spa line with less foam.  It won't be a Hot Spring Spa.  

We don't even know what all this means right now.  Will it still be full foam, just a lower density throughout?  Or will it truly have less foam altogether?  The spas haven't even been released.  I see a lot of speculation about what these spas are.  There are a few people who have seen them and heard about them, but Watkins has asked them to keep their lips sealed until the release.  They are doing a remarkable job in keeping quiet.

They won't have to change their production line much at all.  When the new spa comes through the foam tunnel, they'll just put in less or different foam.  They have people spraying the foam of different densities already.  That won't be difficult.  Plus, they'll probably make these spas in Mexico where they can easily adapt and are already fiberglassing the Calderas and Solana Spas.

[drewstar]

thanks Vanguard.....very intersting.


You also mentioned fiberglassing the Caldera's"....the calderia's are fiberglass? I thought they were acrylic. Is this new?

[Chas]

Caldera Spas are made of cast Acrylic, vacuum molded and then backed with hand-laminated fiberglass.

They always have been.

 8-)

[Vanguard]

Caldera Spas are made of cast Acrylic, vacuum molded and then backed with hand-laminated fiberglass.

They always have been.

 8-)

Yes, that is what I meant by fiberglassing.  They hand lay and roll multiple layers of fiberglass to the back of an acrylic shell.