Narrowing it down: Arctic, Phoenix, Hot Springs...

[Josh]

I'm not a dealer, just an owner, and have only owned one brand (my Arctic) but while I was shopping I looked at a LOT of tubs, and seeing so many in a short time made it a bit easier for me to directly compare what seemed quality TO ME and what did not.

I looked at Arctic, Artesian, HS/TigerRiver, D1, Coleman, LA, Caldera, Ca Spa, Marquis, Catalina, Emerald and United. Jaccuzi and Sundance were not in my area. When I later saw the Phoenix spas, I was no longer in the market, but wandering through the store, touching buttons, looking at the cabinets, feeling the articulation of the jets- the Phoenix spas felt CHEAP. A step above United. Barely. I may just be really picky, but when craftsmanship LOOKS shoddy, I'm often going to assume that it IS.

It is unfortunate that you cannot get an opinion on Phoenix from someone who owns one here, but maybe there is a reason for that.

Will the Phoenix dealer give you a list of previous customers to contact?

Regardless, wet test- let that be your biggest guide.

Anne,

I'm looking at Arctic too. They're in my list of the last few contenders I've narrowed down and on my very short list of spas I'll be wet testing.  I'm going to try to do it all in one day, and that way I'll have a really fresh comparison reference when I do it.

I wonder if anyone would give me a list of their customers to call. I've never heard of any business doing that, and I'd hate it if I bought something and had people calling my house to ask me if I liked it or not all the time.  On the other hand....as a customer, I'd love it if I could say "Hey...give me your customer data so I can pick their brains".  

[Josh]

I think Phoenix’s relationship with someone skews our opinions of that brand.  At least it does for me.  

What was it about their relationship with you that skewed your opinion?

Josh,

With all due respect,

You come to this forum, filled with hot tub owners, shoppers, dealers, spokespeople, and sales people, and say that you are "Looking for some real world thoughts".

In response, you are given some "real world thoughts" from the hot tub owners, shoppers, dealers, spokespeople, and sales people the forum.

Then you complain about it.

If you don’t want these thoughts, don’t ask for them.

I'm not complaining about the real world thoughts I actually asked for.

However, had you read my original post "Numbersdon'tlie" or whatever your real name on these boards is (hiding behind a fake account is about the dumbest thing you can do on a message board if you want anyone to take you seriously)....you'd see that I specifically said I was NOT looking for horror stories.

I think the fact that you took the time to create a fake account, just so you could post yet another horror story about your competition (after I've said a bunch of times that I'm really not interested in them) is just stupid.  I have nothing but contempt for the dealers that act this way.

Now, if you'd like to log back into your regular account and tell me why I should buy the particular brand of hot tub that you happen to represent, that's just fine.  I'm all ears.  I'm definitely interested in those sorts of opinions and facts.  That kind of stuff can be very helpful to someone like me who's shopping around.    So far...people's positive recommendations of hot tubs have caused me to consider a few brands that weren't even on my radar.

That's really what this thread is all about.

[Richs100]

Josh:

Sit in a Hot Spring Envoy (lounger) or a Grandee (no lounger).
If your butt fits, buy it.  
I did
I love it
It's easy to maintain
It's well build
It has flashy lights, a fountain and a stereo with transducer speakers
It has a floating remote (which, truthfully, I'm not crazy about)
This customer gives the tub a ***** (five star) rating!

If it wet tests well, you will never regret a Hot Spring.

Rich

[Josh]

Thanks for the tips.
I am headed there tomorrow morning. We're expecting snow in Seattle, so they may be both the first and last tub I wet test tomorrow AM.  

[Chris_H]

What was it about their relationship with you that skewed your opinion?

I don't have a relationship with Phoenix Spas.  I am stating that Phoenix has a relationship with a certain "Specialist" that turns me off.  Due to this relationship, it makes me (and others) feel that Phoenix is a not so reputable company.  

However, my thoughts are if Phoenix gets in bed with this "Specialist" I can only imagine the type of other dealers they have signed up.  I can't imagine it would be a good thing.  

[Josh]

I don't have a relationship with Phoenix Spas.  I am stating that Phoenix has a relationship with a certain "Specialist" that turns me off.  Due to this relationship, it makes me (and others) feel that Phoenix is a not so reputable company.  

However, my thoughts are if Phoenix gets in bed with this "Specialist" I can only imagine the type of other dealers they have signed up.  I can't imagine it would be a good thing.  

I guess I'm too new here to understand what you're talking about.  I assume from your clues that you are referring to the guy in that 75 page topic about the "Real Spa Specialist" in the Beating a Dead Horse section of these forums.   Should I read the topic?  Is it about Phoenix spas, or was the guy just a jerk or something?

[Chris_H]

I guess I'm too new here to understand what you're talking about.  I assume from your clues that you are referring to the guy in that 75 page topic about the "Real Spa Specialist" in the Beating a Dead Horse section of these forums.   Should I read the topic?  Is it about Phoenix spas, or was the guy just a jerk or something?

No, you should not read that topic unless you have a good 2 hours to read it.  I have better things to do.  

It relates to the ethics of the company.  If they sell to someone that is, in most peoples minds, dishonest or a variation of dishonest, what other types of dealers are they utilizing to support their product.  Ask any person in the industry, everyone knows that  Hotspring is a reputable manufacturer and generally has reputable dealers.  I can't say that about Phoenix and it is primarily due to their most famous dealer.  

[Vanguard]

Seems to me, that most people have not promoted only the brand they sell.  Even the salespeople here on the forum have given you a number of brands that are good quality.  There seems to be a consensus out there that one of the brands on your list is not a quality spa while others are.  I can't see why that is considered bashing.  

I chimed in pretty early on this post.  I gave you a number of brands that I believe are the top brands out there.  I also told you that I didn't think Phoenix was among the top brands, rather a somewhat disreputable brand.  I have based that on over 20 years in the pool/spa industry.  I do not work for a hot tub company, but know many people in and around the business, so I have an unbiased perspective in that regard.  I do own a Hot Spring Vanguard.  I can say that I own a Hot Spring because I believe it to be one of the best brands out there -again based on the time in the industry.

You seem to like Phoenix because of features.  While features are nice, they are not everything.  Even features can be poorly built.   Mercedes had some of the same features as Yugo.  Just because Yugo had an engine and brakes doesn't mean they were built of the same quality.  The same goes in this industry.

As stated before, you asked for opinions, real world opinions, and were given them.  Now, it seems that since they weren't of the tenor you were looking for, or the answers you were looking for, you are upset at people that don't like Phoenix.

From what I have read on this string, consumers and salespeople alike are just trying to help you make a good decision.

[Josh]

As stated before, you asked for opinions, real world opinions, and were given them.  Now, it seems that since they weren't of the tenor you were looking for, or the answers you were looking for, you are upset at people that don't like Phoenix.

Sigh. It has nothing to do with Phoenix. I really don't know how else to explain it.  I thought I'd already re-clarified the intent behind this topic in the most simple terms possible....but perhaps I'm still being somewhat vague.

Let me try yet again:

I'm extremely interested in hearing about what people here like.  Whether they own it, they've looked at it, or they sell it....I'm looking for all the first hand opinions and information I can get on brands I should take a look at.  That kind of information is valuable to me, because it will help point me in the right direction.

I have no interest in hearing about what people here don't like....or hearing their opinions on what I should stay away from.  

Why?

Simply because I've heard enough horror stories and dis-information while shopping around locally to last me a lifetime and the last thing I need is more of it from this website.  I realize that some people here are just trying to help me by pointing out that they think this brand sucks, or that brand sucks.....but you have to understand that all the dealers I've been to have already told me that same crap.

Hearing everyone's negative opinions has been the most annoying thing about hunting for a hot tub....because I've heard more negative than I have heard positive.  Now...if people wanted to point me to a new dealer that wasn't on my list....or maybe tell me some awesome things about their tub of choice (something I might not have heard yet)....that's the kind of advice I'm looking for.

Is that really too much to ask for?


In other related news....my list is narrowed even further after some extensive wet testing.  I wet tested just about a dozen different tubs today, and I've crossed a bunch of brands off the list.  I'll post a summary later (I took a digital recorder with me to capture my thoughts after I got out of every single one).   It also snowed here in Seattle today and I wish I could use the tub I actually have, but it's busted.

[Josh]

Well folks....here are the results of today's extensive wet testing.  I started out at Hot Springs, then made my way to Sundance spas, Jacuzzi (where I tried two models), LA Spas (tried 2 different ones there) then Arctic and finally Phoenix.  At each stop, I tested as many models as they had wet (that I was interested in) and then I sat dry in similar models just to get another feel for things after I'd sampled their jets.   Overall...I wet tested 8 different tubs and sat again in another 4 or 5 on top of that (once you know how the jets work, it's easier to imagine how they'll work in the dry tubs).  After each wet test, I'd go out to my car and speak all of my thoughts into a digital recorder I brought with me.  This way, I never got confused or forgot any of the things I liked or disliked about each tub.

You'll notice that I tested several brands recommended by users here and that I also managed to eliminate several models from my search today. I'm over halfway done and while I could probably pick just based on today's wet testing, I'm taking this search pretty seriously and I've still got a few more stops to do next week before I decide.

Wet Testing was by far the best advice anyone could have ever given me.  While I may have been happy with many of my choices before testing them, now that I've been able to compare, I've learned what I like and I can shop specifically for it now.  From this point on, I'm judging strictly on how good the tub actually feels to me.  Everything else is a secondary factor as far as I'm concerned.

First stop was Hot Springs. I loved the up and down massaging jets in their lounge, but most of the other seats were just too short for me.  I also found that the jets were great when you're concentrating all the power to one seat, but as soon as you start sharing with other seats.....they get really weak. Since I go in the tub more with other people than without them, this would end up really bugging me when I didn't get my first pick of seat.  Also...I didn't like that you couldn't turn the foot jets on the lounge up to full blast without sacrificing some of the force behind you (not to mention in the seats next to you).   Simultaneous back and feet jets are the whole point of lying down in a lounge, I thought.  Last, and most importantly....I'm a tall guy and found that my shoulders stuck out of their tub in all but a couple of the seats. I don't mind a cool down seat or two...but in these tubs, there were essentially four cool downs for a guy my size.  As well made as they may be and as nice as the sales guy was to me, I'm going to have to leave these fairly comfortable tubs for the shorter folks out there and move on to the next brand.

Sundance is still in the running with the Cameo.  When I got in, I immediately noticed they had a nicer lounge with much better jets than the Hot Springs spas (which I had just come from). I also thought more of the non-lounge seats were quite comfortable than the one I'd just been in.  You can really stick your feet out.  Again...this is important to me since I'm 6'4".
There are a couple of deeper seats besides the lounge seat and I really liked their foot jets. Very good little tub, but I saw some today that I liked better.  Still...if I decide to bargain shop, this one is staying on my list because it'll be in the lower price range and it's a perfectly good tub for what they're asking.

To be continued in the next post....

[Josh]

Next up was a Jacuzzi store. I crossed the Jacuzzi 480 off my list today. The lounge was the least comfortable lounge seat of the day, and my feet stuck over the edges of the foot jets (rendering them useless to me).  The Jacuzzi 470 is still in the running as a very comfortable non-lounger, but it's also one of the most expensive tubs I looked at today (and I found better non-loungers for the money).  I liked it, so I'm not eliminating it....but I'd have to get a huge discount on it to pick it over the next spa I sat in.

After grabbing a quick bite, I voyaged to LA Spas which was the surprise of the day.  These guys were only an also ran when I first visited the showrooms, but they turned out to be awesome.  The lounge seat in the Heet was my favorite lounge of the day and the jets were just amazingly versatile and powerful. They also have these optional neck and shoulder jets (which I would definitely want installed) that are each independently controlled and I found that when you combine them with the back and feet jets, it's even better than the lounge chairs (which it also had).  Their air bubblers were particularly powerful and I actually liked the way they felt with no jets on at all.  The Heet came with two of the neck and shoulder jet bucket seats, but one of those made it uncomfortable for me. I'd have to custom order the tub without that particular feature (or have one seat for short friends that I'd never sit in).  I think I'd customize it.  

I also tested the LA Spas Concord, which had no lounge, but had two of those Neck and Shoulders seats that were plenty deep enough for me. It also had two deep buckets, plus a bench and a regular seat or two. Great Party tub. Of the non-lounge tubs, this was by far the best I found today.  Both of these were deep enough for me, they both had the options like lights and waterfalls that I think are cool add-ons....so these have moved way up my list to become top contenders.

Next stop was Arctic, where I tested out the Klondiker.  This was the stop where I learned first hand that the number of jets really doesn't mean everything. Even though this tub had the most jets of any of the ones on my search list, it was the least comfortable of all the tubs I tested today. One of the bucket seats actually hurt my lower back to sit in it for some reason and it was too shallow in all but two of the other seats.  The air bubbler in this one was indeed nice, as were the foot jets. Problem was, they were only accessible from the most uncomfortable seat in the tub for me. Despite all the jets they packed into this thing, the lounge just wasn't nearly as comfortable as the Sundance, The LA Spas, the Hot Springs or the Phoenix lounge.   Only reason it beat out the Jacuzzi was because it was tall enough for me.....but this was an easy one to cross off my list.

Last store was the ever dreaded Phoenix, which I wasn't sure I'd make it to because of the snow that started getting really bad shortly before I hit Arctic.  I decided to chance it and drove there to try out the Coronado which was the one they had filled up and ready to go.  The salesman had told me it would feel a little smaller tub than the one I am actually interested in, and he was right. Still, the seats were still surprisingly comfortable. Their tub also features neck and shoulder jets and while they aren't as nice as the ones at LA Spas, I liked them.  The lounge was really good...but it was too short for me on this model.  The lounge in their Sorrento is the right size (I got in dry), but they didn't have it filled up for wet testing, so they're going to fill it for me and I'm going to try that later in the week.

I also still want to try the D1 Chairman 2, but the D1 dealership didn't have it filled and they're not open tomorrow...so that'll have to be during the week sometime too. I have high hopes for this one. Once I've tried that and the Phoenix Sorrento, I think I'll be narrowing it down to the top few and picking one.

 It should be noted that I ruled out Marquis after a visit to their showroom yesterday, and Dynasty is just a little too far away for both testing and regular service calls.

That's it! Did I miss anything?  Any great brands that I need to check out still?  Let me know....

[Gomboman]

Josh, what Hot Spring model did you test? I'm sure the models with the lounger allow the DX moto and the foot-jets to operate at the same time--Envoy, Vista, Aria. Maybe you were operating the spa incorrectly?

The Envoy might be a little short for you but the Vista should work. If you don't like the lounger the Grandee should fit you. Did you wet test the Grandee? That would be a great spa if you have guests. Good luck....

[Josh]

The jets did operate at the same time, they just weren't as strong when operated together as when operated separately, and I didn't like that very much. And yes, the Vista was the one I wanted from there.

I didn't wet test the Grandee because it wasn't filled and I'm leaning towards the lounger models anyway.

I've heard they're a good company and all (and I know there are a bunch of employees here on the forums)...these just didn't feel perfect to me, especially after wet testing so many more that felt so much better...so I had to cross em off.  For what it's worth, I thought they were better than Arctic spas...and the salesman at Hot Springs is a really nice guy..

[Gomboman]

The jets did operate at the same time, they just weren't as strong when operated together as when operated separately, and I didn't like that very much. And yes, the Vista was the one I wanted from there.

I didn't wet test the Grandee because it wasn't filled and I'm leaning towards the lounger models anyway.

I've heard they're a good company and all (and I know there are a bunch of employees here on the forums)...these just didn't feel perfect to me, especially after wet testing so many more that felt so much better...so I had to cross em off.  For what it's worth, I thought they were better than Arctic spas...and the salesman at Hot Springs is a really nice guy..

Josh, that's why you want to wet test. Most folks don't do this. Can you imagine spending 10K on a spa and being disappointed when you bring it home.

Anyway, I'm thinking perhaps you had the HS diverter valve turned only half way on the footjets. The DX Moto Massage and the footjets are designed to operate full power together. They are operated by two separate pumps. At least they are with my Envoy. No big deal.

If you want to stick with a lounger you should also try the Caldera Geneva. It should be large enough for you and the jets are stronger than the HS models. Good luck....

[Josh]

Josh, that's why you want to wet test. Most folks don't do this. Can you imagine spending 10K on a spa and being disappointed when you bring it home.

Not anymore I can't.  I could have before I started doing my research. I figured I'd just shop around online...find the consensus on the best ones and then buy the one that looked right for me.  Turned out there was no consensus, the looks were very deceiving and sevreal of the tubs I thought I'd end up liking were pretty darn uncomfortable to me compared to others I wasn't even strongly considering.

In the future, if I ever give advice....it's going to be three words:  Wet Test Everything.

Everything else is subjective.

Anyway, I'm thinking perhaps you had the HS diverter valve turned only half way on the footjets. The DX Moto Massage and the footjets are designed to operate full power together. They are operated by two separate pumps. At least they are with my Envoy. No big deal.

If you want to stick with a lounger you should also try the Caldera Geneva. It should be large enough for you and the jets are stronger than the HS models. Good luck....

I had the salespeople at each store run all the jets for me (all I did is sit there and let them show me stuff, and at the Hot Springs place, the guy seemed pretty darn knowledgeable, so I'm pretty sure we were getting the best out of that tub as was possible.  Even if the jets had been stronger, the mold simply wasn't the one that felt right to me (more short seats than deep ones).  I'm sure that doesn't matter for the majority of people, but I'm 6'4" so even a couple of inches of depth ends up making a real difference for me.  

I actually visited Caldera on my first day of shopping.  I remember I didn't go back because their spas didn't look as nice as others I saw that day.  Perhaps knowing what I know now, it's time for another visit. There's a dealership really close by so it can't hurt.  Thanks for the tip.  I'll see if they have a Geneva.