Narrowing it down: Arctic, Phoenix, Hot Springs...

[Josh]

Did you have another spa before it and do you find that there is a significant energy savings if so?  

The Artic dealership had this sales pitch about how their filter can maintain the heat of the water.....but I'm not sure how exactly that's possible.  They tried to explain it to me, but it seems to me you're either running the heater, or running the filter....either way you're using power.

[Hot Tub Guru]

Heres a few more of my pennies...  What is the widget coming out on spas next year?  I don't know either, but it can be installed in an Arctic Spa.  I have done some form of upgrade (adding a stereo, ozone, 20 more jets/a third pump to power them.  Its about 25% of the tubs I sold have had some form of upgrade.  That number could be 20%

[lagator43]

Did you have another spa before it and do you find that there is a significant energy savings if so?  

The Artic dealership had this sales pitch about how their filter can maintain the heat of the water.....but I'm not sure how exactly that's possible.  They tried to explain it to me, but it seems to me you're either running the heater, or running the filter....either way you're using power.

No, I did not own another hottub.  In the Canadian climate I live in the winters run me about $40 a month to heat.  Arctic gave me the same energy saving rant when I shopped there. I bought an Arctic because of the positive reputation they have amoung my coworkers.  In the end all of the top end tubs will be very close in energy costs. Pick the tub that suits your needs and the dealer you have the most confidence in.

[Tom]

The Artic dealership had this sales pitch about how their filter can maintain the heat of the water.....but I'm not sure how exactly that's possible.

The pitch is that because of the way the tub is designed, heat generated by the running motors can help maintain the water temperature and reduce heater use.  You'll probably find this discussed ad nauseum in the Dead Horse section.

[Josh]

I just read through that.  It sounds like there's no good answers either way. I sort of figured that (whether you're running a motor or powering a heater, you're using juice) but it is an interesting concept.

[NumbersDontLie]

In response to the Phoenix pictures, Josh says:

I get it though. In several people's opinions the Phoenix is a bad idea. I have noticed that none of these opinions are coming from people who owned one and got rid of it, or repaired them and think they're a hassle, or even sat in a friend's tub and didn't like it.  They're all from people who like (or sell) another brand.  I just wish that those people would stick to talking to me about the brand they support (instead of trying to stop me from considering a brand they don't support).  See where I'm coming from?  

I have to agree with Josh. It is a shame we don't have any Phoenix owners telling us their real world experiences with the product and with the company that makes it.

With that in mind I decided to do some research and see if I could find some sort of verifiable feed back.

I logged on to The Better Business Bureau of North East Calif and asked to see all hot tub retailers within 30 miles of Redding, Ca.

The search listed over 30 companies. I excluded those companies that were clearly "work at home", service, or pool and spa construction companies.

It left a list of 6 brick and mortar retailers that include Hot Spring Spa, Caldera, Sundance, Coleman, D1 & Phoenix spa.

In the past 36 months, there have been 18 BBB complaints generated from the customers of these Redding, Ca retailers.

16 of those 18 complaints are directed at Phoenix Spas.

I immediately thought that Phoenix Spas clearly had a disproportionate amount of complaints compared to the rest of the local Redding Hot Tub retailers. Then I realized that this might not be a fair comparison as the other local retailers are just that, local, while Phoenix is a national brand. Perhaps 16 complaints are proportionate to other major manufacturers.

I then compared Phoenix’s BBB report to those of Watkins Mfg (HSS, Caldera) and Sundance/Jacuzzi.

Without any verifiable data to support this, my conservative guess is that either of these companies, on a national level, sells at least 6 times the amount that Phoenix does.

My thinking was that if either company had approximately 6 times the amount of complaints, perhaps Phoenix was right in line with complaints vs. units sold.

Sundance’s BBB shows they have 31 complaints. If my 6X theory is true, then clearly this company has far less complaints to units sold then Phoenix.

The Watkins BBB report, however, is the real shocker. Regardless of the accuracy of my 6X theory, no one will contest that Watkins is a giant power house in the industry. This major player only had 13 complaints! With a total of 3 complaints less then Phoenix I am able to come to the conclusion that not only are the amount of complaints towards Phoenix Spas high, but the amount is disproportionate to the local Redding Hot Tub Retailers AND to the national brands as well.

Phoenix customers may not be speaking on this forum, but they do speak.


 

[AstaLaVista]

I have to agree with Josh. It is a shame we don't have any Phoenix owners telling us their real world experiences with the product and with the company that makes it.

With that in mind I decided to do some research and see if I could find some sort of verifiable feed back.

I logged on to The Better Business Bureau of North East Calif and asked to see all hot tub retailers within 30 miles of Redding, Ca.

The search listed over 30 companies. I excluded those companies that were clearly "work at home", service, or pool and spa construction companies.

It left a list of 6 brick and mortar retailers that include Hot Spring Spa, Caldera, Sundance, Coleman, D1 & Phoenix spa.

In the past 36 months, there have been 18 BBB complaints generated from the customers of these Redding, Ca retailers.

16 of those 18 complaints are directed at Phoenix Spas.

I immediately thought that Phoenix Spas clearly had a disproportionate amount of complaints compared to the rest of the local Redding Hot Tub retailers. Then I realized that this might not be a fair comparison as the other local retailers are just that, local, while Phoenix is a national brand. Perhaps 16 complaints are proportionate to other major manufacturers.

I then compared Phoenix’s BBB report to those of Watkins Mfg (HSS, Caldera) and Sundance/Jacuzzi.

Without any verifiable data to support this, my conservative guess is that either of these companies, on a national level, sells at least 6 times the amount that Phoenix does.

My thinking was that if either company had approximately 6 times the amount of complaints, perhaps Phoenix was right in line with complaints vs. units sold.

Sundance’s BBB shows they have 31 complaints. If my 6X theory is true, then clearly this company has far less complaints to units sold then Phoenix.

The Watkins BBB report, however, is the real shocker. Regardless of the accuracy of my 6X theory, no one will contest that Watkins is a giant power house in the industry. This major player only had 13 complaints! With a total of 3 complaints less then Phoenix I am able to come to the conclusion that not only are the amount of complaints towards Phoenix Spas high, but the amount is disproportionate to the local Redding Hot Tub Retailers AND to the national brands as well.

Phoenix customers may not be speaking on this forum, but they do speak.

Being a HS Vista owner..... this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy..

[Josh]

Being a HS Vista owner..... this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy..

Being a searching shopper, that information would make me feel a little cautious about that brand....except that I don't live in Redding and I already did my own BBB search which turned up completely conflicting results from that story.

When I started the search, I did a BBB check for the local dealers myself...and saw that my local Phoenix dealer and the local Arctic dealer both have the same number of complaints. They were the first two stores I went to, and they're both in the single digits complaints-wise. The local Marquis Dealership also has a few complaints (I couldn't find info on the D1 place).  Only Hot Springs, Jacuzzi and Sundance had no complaints at all.  What that told me is that all the local dealers I'm visiting are rating pretty highly....which is a good thing.

Again...all factors I already took into account when starting my search.


I do find it strange that one of the members here (probably a dealer) has gone through the trouble of registering a brand new fake account just to bash Phoenix some more.  I gotta say...all this petty badmouthing is doing is making me more interested in giving that company as much of a chance as I possibly can.  

I was admittedly interested in them before....but all this bashing of their product has just amplified that interest, if only because I despise the petty tactics some dealers (on this board and in the showrooms I've visited) use against their competition.  

These shady and juvenile tactics of slandering your competition instead of simply selling your own product are a very bad way to sell a product to a person like me who hates deception.    All things being equal, I'm always prone to trust the person who doesn't employ that sort of sales method....because they're clearly a person of a higher moral integrity than their venom-filled competitors.  I know a person with a higher moral integrity is going to be the kind of person who probably is less likely to lie during their sales pitch, and more likely to back up the products they sell the way they claim they will.

I said it in my original post, I've repeated it several times...but I'm only looking for info on the good features of brands I'm interested in.  I'm NOT looking for a smear campaign against brands that dealers here are competing with. Clearly...some people here are not understanding that very simple request.  I'm pretty much ignoring the input from those folks.

To the rest of you (owners and fellow shoppers)...continued thanks for your advice. I'm heading out to Marquis this afternoon, then Sundance and D1 later today....the last three brands represented locally that I need to check out.  Next stop:  Wet Testing everything on my growing list and narrowing it down to my top few.

[IL Parrothead]

Josh,
I too am a fellow shopper.  I've wet tested 6 or 7 brands.  I know nothing about Phoenix, so I promise I won't bash it.  I will tell you that I think it's very wise that you're wet testing.  And I personally am in the "You get what you pay for" camp.  Therefore, I personally decided I would only buy from one of the top 5 or 6 manufacturers.  I belong to this and another forum.  I assume a lot of the posts are from company reps and dealers, and I factor that into how I analyze the posts.  But even when someone is clearly with a certain company, they oftentimes will acknowledge who else makes great tubs.  So, after reading for a few weeks/months, one can quickly decipher who makes the best tubs and has the best reputation.  My advice -- stick to one of the very well made tubs that everyone concedes is in the top 5 (or 10) manufacturers, and you'll be happier in the long run.  It's admirable, I suppose, that you're thinking about giving an underdog a chance, but it's a big investment.  I personally would rather reward the manufacturer that did all the R & D and put alot of effort into good customer service.  Just my opinion.  I'll sit down now.  

[Spatech_tuo]

I said it in my original post, I've repeated it several times...but I'm only looking for info on the good features of brands I'm interested in.  I'm NOT looking for a smear campaign against brands that dealers here are competing with. Clearly...some people here are not understanding that very simple request.  I'm pretty much ignoring the input from those folks.

I think part of it may be that the posters don't feel they are smearing but feel they are providing a requested opinion and/or information. You've seen what other people have said about some of the options you've noted and its up to you to take and do with that what you wish but don't blame the messengers, you came here to get opinions (and facts too but much of this is subjective).

You are obviously spending some time searching and if that leads you to Phoenix then you should by all means wet test the Phoenix along with the Arctic, Hot Spring, D1, Sundance and Marquis (and any others in your area that you feel are worthy). If in the end you like the Phoenix spa and the dealer more than any of the others then you should do what you feel is best for you.  

[anne]

I'm not a dealer, just an owner, and have only owned one brand (my Arctic) but while I was shopping I looked at a LOT of tubs, and seeing so many in a short time made it a bit easier for me to directly compare what seemed quality TO ME and what did not.

I looked at Arctic, Artesian, HS/TigerRiver, D1, Coleman, LA, Caldera, Ca Spa, Marquis, Catalina, Emerald and United. Jaccuzi and Sundance were not in my area. When I later saw the Phoenix spas, I was no longer in the market, but wandering through the store, touching buttons, looking at the cabinets, feeling the articulation of the jets- the Phoenix spas felt CHEAP. A step above United. Barely. I may just be really picky, but when craftsmanship LOOKS shoddy, I'm often going to assume that it IS.

It is unfortunate that you cannot get an opinion on Phoenix from someone who owns one here, but maybe there is a reason for that.

Will the Phoenix dealer give you a list of previous customers to contact?

Regardless, wet test- let that be your biggest guide.

[Chris_H]

I think Phoenix’s relationship with someone skews our opinions of that brand.  At least it does for me.  

However, any person in the spa business will tell you the single worst thing one can do to the shell is keep it outside unprotected without water.  Phoenix apparently does this with their spas.  

In my opinion, you are in a different league when comparing a Phoenix spa to a Hotspring or an Artic.  Again that is just my opinion.  

[Josh]

Josh,
I too am a fellow shopper.  I've wet tested 6 or 7 brands.  I know nothing about Phoenix, so I promise I won't bash it.  I will tell you that I think it's very wise that you're wet testing.  And I personally am in the "You get what you pay for" camp.  Therefore, I personally decided I would only buy from one of the top 5 or 6 manufacturers.  I belong to this and another forum.  I assume a lot of the posts are from company reps and dealers, and I factor that into how I analyze the posts.  But even when someone is clearly with a certain company, they oftentimes will acknowledge who else makes great tubs.  So, after reading for a few weeks/months, one can quickly decipher who makes the best tubs and has the best reputation.  My advice -- stick to one of the very well made tubs that everyone concedes is in the top 5 (or 10) manufacturers, and you'll be happier in the long run.  It's admirable, I suppose, that you're thinking about giving an underdog a chance, but it's a big investment.  I personally would rather reward the manufacturer that did all the R & D and put alot of effort into good customer service.  Just my opinion.  I'll sit down now.  

Sound advice, and rest assured, I'm doing just that. Today, I went out to D1 and Marquis (both of which were recommended by members of these boards).  Neither brand was something I looked at before, but both of them got put on my list simply because someone here recommended them.

D1 looked really good and the dealer was very helpful. They were a bit on the pricey side, but I'm not letting price be the number 1 factor in my search. I realize this is a long term purchase and I plan to buy a hot tub I think is the best, not just the one that's biggest bargain.

Marquis...not so much.  The floor model was broken and the seating configuration didn't look as good in person as it did on the internet anyway. Don't think I'll even wet test it.

[NumbersDontLie]

 

Being a searching shopper, that information would make me feel a little cautious about that brand....except that I don't live in Redding and I already did my own BBB search which turned up completely conflicting results from that story.

When I started the search, I did a BBB check for the local dealers myself...and saw that my local Phoenix dealer and the local Arctic dealer both have the same number of complaints. They were the first two stores I went to, and they're both in the single digits complaints-wise. The local Marquis Dealership also has a few complaints (I couldn't find info on the D1 place).  Only Hot Springs, Jacuzzi and Sundance had no complaints at all.  What that told me is that all the local dealers I'm visiting are rating pretty highly....which is a good thing.

Again...all factors I already took into account when starting my search.


I do find it strange that one of the members here (probably a dealer) has gone through the trouble of registering a brand new fake account just to bash Phoenix some more.  I gotta say...all this petty badmouthing is doing is making me more interested in giving that company as much of a chance as I possibly can.  

I was admittedly interested in them before....but all this bashing of their product has just amplified that interest, if only because I despise the petty tactics some dealers (on this board and in the showrooms I've visited) use against their competition.  

These shady and juvenile tactics of slandering your competition instead of simply selling your own product are a very bad way to sell a product to a person like me who hates deception.    All things being equal, I'm always prone to trust the person who doesn't employ that sort of sales method....because they're clearly a person of a higher moral integrity than their venom-filled competitors.  I know a person with a higher moral integrity is going to be the kind of person who probably is less likely to lie during their sales pitch, and more likely to back up the products they sell the way they claim they will.

I said it in my original post, I've repeated it several times...but I'm only looking for info on the good features of brands I'm interested in.  I'm NOT looking for a smear campaign against brands that dealers here are competing with. Clearly...some people here are not understanding that very simple request.  I'm pretty much ignoring the input from those folks.

To the rest of you (owners and fellow shoppers)...continued thanks for your advice. I'm heading out to Marquis this afternoon, then Sundance and D1 later today....the last three brands represented locally that I need to check out.  Next stop:  Wet Testing everything on my growing list and narrowing it down to my top few.

Josh,

With all due respect,

You come to this forum, filled with hot tub owners, shoppers, dealers, spokespeople, and sales people, and say that you are "Looking for some real world thoughts".

In response, you are given some "real world thoughts" from the hot tub owners, shoppers, dealers, spokespeople, and sales people the forum.

Then you complain about it.

If you don’t want these thoughts, don’t ask for them.

In reference to Phoenix you stated   “I have noticed that none of these opinions are coming from people who owned one and got rid of it, or repaired them and think they're a hassle, or even sat in a friend's tub and didn't like it.”

I am not a Phoenix owner and can not state an opinion as such. It was very easy, however, to locate a source for some “real world thoughts” in the form of complaints from, in this case, 16 Phoenix Owners.

The source is the BBB. Simply repeat the research as I have and you’ll have to agree that it is not bashing, petty bad mouthing, shady and juvenile tactics, slander, deception, venom-filled, or a lie. (WOW! Shades of you know who when I read that)  

It is rather simply reporting what is on the BBB web site.

Further analysis of those complaints show that, according to the BBB, Phoenix had tried & was able to satisfy some of the clients while some of the clients remained dissatisfied.

According to the BBB, Sundance was able to satisfy all but one of the 31 clients who had complained.

Watkins was able to resolve all of the 13 customers who complained to the BBB, based upon information posted on the BBB web site.

Any data that I have posted here I can support through 3rd part verification. When I stated something that I could not verify, I was very clear that it was just my thoughts and opinion.

Josh, you have the right, reason and ability to place value, or not, on this or any information you read here. This is your purchase, your home, and your hard earned money and your investment, not mine. If Phoenix is the one for you, please, enjoy it.

You’ve asked for things to be all positive & I’ll leave you this.

I’d buy a Phoenix because you can buy them directly from the manufacturer in Redding for dirt, dirt cheap compared to other brands.

You might want to rent a truck and make the trip and buy it in Calif.


 

[Josh]

I think part of it may be that the posters don't feel they are smearing but feel they are providing a requested opinion and/or information. You've seen what other people have said about some of the options you've noted and its up to you to take and do with that what you wish but don't blame the messengers, you came here to get opinions (and facts too but much of this is subjective).
 

The problem is, I very specifically spelled out that what I'm not looking for. I've specifically said that I don't need any advice on what NOT to buy.  I've said that probably half a dozen times now and there are still some people on this board that insist on throwing their 2 cents in anyway.

 The most annoying thing about my hot tub search so far is that I keep meeting up with these sleezy salesmen that want to give me a horror story about a competing brand.  I've heard at least one about each brand I'm considering...and frankly, I'm tired of it.

Folks, EVERY dealer claims they have the best warranty. EVERY dealer claims they have the best product. EVERY dealer has claimed they use the best materials (or hold more patents), or that their tub is the most comfortable and theraputic....etc, etc. Every dealer claims to have the best filtering, the best jets, and every dealer claims that their cabinet is built the best too.

You don't have to be an rocket scientist to figure out that they're all full of it. Even if they believe their own stupid BS, logic states they can't all be right.  That's just not possible.  So....instead of hearing why the other guys suck, I just want to focus on why each person thinks a certain brand is good.

I really don't think that's a lot to ask for.

You are obviously spending some time searching and if that leads you to Phoenix then you should by all means wet test the Phoenix along with the Arctic, Hot Spring, D1, Sundance and Marquis (and any others in your area that you feel are worthy). If in the end you like the Phoenix spa and the dealer more than any of the others then you should do what you feel is best for you.  

It's been a couple of weeks now and I've visited more than a dozen stores. I've listened to all their pitches, collected all their brochures, researched online, checked the BBB, asked friends and family and now I'm using that combination of factors to decide which ones to narrow it down to.

Right now, here are the brands I'm leaning towards, in alphabetical order:

Arctic
D1
Hot Springs
Jacuzzi
LA Spas
Phoenix
Sundance

I've crossed a few off my list after seeing the models in the store, and I'm sure I'll cross a few more off after I wet test them.  What I absolutely won't do is let some biased brand-loyal dealer or internet forum member (or both) tell me what I shouldn't buy based on their own personal agendas.