new here- leaning towards the HS Vanguard.

[Chad]

"What does the max horsepower rating mean anyway?"

Continuous Operating is the amount of HP the motor is capable of producing while your spa is in operation. Brake HP is the momentary(sp?) HP the motor produces at the start up, before dropping to Continuous HP.

[searchinginfl]

Replying to the Caldera/Hot Springs question.....Every spa has their own way of cleaning. In the end, all of the top end spas.....Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi, D-1, Marquis.....they will all keep the water as clean as possible, as long as you maintain it.

I chose the Caldera Niagra. I originally wanted the Geneva (the one with the lounge), but after wet testing, I liked the flexibility the Niagra has. I love the BIG foot jet, and I love the fact that it is not right in the middle of the floor. I love the wide variety of jets, which is Caldera's philosophy of "circuit" soaking....each seat gives a different massage. I didn't want a spa with 2 seats the same. I love the open floor, which I didn't think would matter, but now I realize how much I move around the spa, and even sit down in the footwell sometimes!

I have only had it for 2 weeks, but I am very happy. I cleaned the filter for the first time last night. It was really easy......but I would not have enjoyed doing 5. I also love the lighting in the Caldera.

My advice....WET TEST!!!! Don't let the filtration system or horsepower or amount of jets be a factor. All the high- end ones are comparable. Go with what feels best. Write down pros and cons RIGHT AFTER testing, and don't be afraid to re-test. ( I tested a few 2-3 times, but kept coming back to the Niagra....4 tests would not let me eliminate it). Good luck and happy hunting!

[AstaLaVista]

To be honest, I originally thought the Vista had 1 5HP pump and the Heet had 3 of them.  I didn't know the Hot Springs had two pumps (my salesman never mentioned that).   However, when someone posted that they were the same, I knew that couldn't be right....so I went to the website and checked out the detailed specs myself.   The Heet still has more HP....but not 300% more.  I stand corrected.

One question:  How many pumps does the Vista come with Standard?  How about the Envoy?   I'm wondering if perhaps I wet tested a one pump HS vs. a three pump LA.  That certainly wouldn't be fair.
Josh,



You assume correctly.  The Hot Springs was always in my original top few choices (especially after all the positive reviews I read everywhere).  It's one of the only brands that I really didn't find a bunch of negativity about. While I chalk a large percentage of that up to the fact that the sites I visited are frequented by Hot Springs salesmen.....I also saw many owners say good things, which I really respected.

After a Wet Test, it wasn't a contender anymore.  When I compared the other dozen or so spas I tested,  the LA Spas Heet and Concord ended up as the top two choices.  I figured it had something to do with all that extra Horsepower....but perhaps that's not as important as I thought it was.

For people that know about this stuff....perhaps you can explain a little more.  What does the max horsepower rating mean anyway?

All I was telling you is that EACH pump is the same EXACT size on the Vista and the Heet.  You just chose to get an extra pump installed on your Heet.. giving you three pumps.  But all pumps are the same size.  The way you originally posted it made it sound like you thought yours was a 5 hp each...and that the Vista had 2.5 hp.  Both have 2.5hp.

Vista comes standard with two.  I don't believe you can have more as an option.. it defeats the purpose of being energy efficent I would think?

[Josh]

My advice....WET TEST!!!! Don't let the filtration system or horsepower or amount of jets be a factor. All the high- end ones are comparable. Go with what feels best. Write down pros and cons RIGHT AFTER testing, and don't be afraid to re-test. ( I tested a few 2-3 times, but kept coming back to the Niagra....4 tests would not let me eliminate it). Good luck and happy hunting!

I absolutely agree. I took along a little digital recorder and went out to the car immediately after every wet test to document exacty how each seat felt. I tested over several days, many back to back....so this was truly the only way to remember exactly how I felt about each and every tub I tested.  With this little aid, I remembered every seat I liked, how strong each tubs jets were compared to others, how deep seats were, or how long the lounge was......

Without that, I'm sure I would have forgotten things.  When I went back and listened to the tapes, it was easy to create a list of the top few to go back and give a second visit to.  That's also how I eventually narrowed it down.

Vista comes standard with two.  I don't believe you can have more as an option.. it defeats the purpose of being energy efficent I would think?

Although I heard many stories in the showrooms, I really don't believe there's such a thing as an "energy efficient spa".  Fact is, they all cost within a few bucks of one another to operate each month....and I'm guessing that average cost doesn't have much to do with how many pumps are in there.  Energy use is likely all about how many gallons of water they hold and how efficiently they bring it up to temperature (and maintain that temperature).  

Now...when you're actually in there and running the jets on full blast....that's a different story. I'm sure during that hour or so....the Heet with the 3 pumps is going to be more of a power hog than the Vista with only 2.   My particular spa even more so....because I added about a billion lights.     Those things are ok with me, because they provide a better experience.  If that costs me 50 cents more or something per kilowatt hour while I'm in there, I can deal with that.

The rest of the time though, most spas just sit there with their heater and circulation pump running.  I'd imagine the specs on those are about the same (and in similarly sized tubs, probably cost within a buck or two to operate each month)

[AstaLaVista]

Josh,

I would say maybe.  I personally like less light as I enjoy the stars.  I am not sure how the HEET runs... but I know when I am in my Vista alone I only need one pump going.. for which ever seat I am sitting in... when the tub is full... I have both pumps on...and my friends ask me to turn the power down as it is too intense... but again... I don't have many 6'4 giants in my tub    I have no complaints with my tub.  I looked at the LA spas sight...and the HEET is a very nice looking tub.. with a lot of jets.. I am sure with that being said its a good thing you have the extra pump.  
Either way... I don't think any of us can really go wrong... with the tubs that are mentioned on this sight... they all have different features...its all in what the individual is looking for.

[FormerForumFriend]

I absolutely agree. I took along a little digital recorder and went out to the car immediately after every wet test to document exacty how each seat felt. I tested over several days, many back to back....so this was truly the only way to remember exactly how I felt about each and every tub I tested.  With this little aid, I remembered every seat I liked, how strong each tubs jets were compared to others, how deep seats were, or how long the lounge was......

Without that, I'm sure I would have forgotten things.  When I went back and listened to the tapes, it was easy to create a list of the top few to go back and give a second visit to.  That's also how I eventually narrowed it down.



Although I heard many stories in the showrooms, I really don't believe there's such a thing as an "energy efficient spa".  Fact is, they all cost within a few bucks of one another to operate each month....and I'm guessing that average cost doesn't have much to do with how many pumps are in there.  Energy use is likely all about how many gallons of water they hold and how efficiently they bring it up to temperature (and maintain that temperature).  

Now...when you're actually in there and running the jets on full blast....that's a different story. I'm sure during that hour or so....the Heet with the 3 pumps is going to be more of a power hog than the Vista with only 2.   My particular spa even more so....because I added about a billion lights.     Those things are ok with me, because they provide a better experience.  If that costs me 50 cents more or something per kilowatt hour while I'm in there, I can deal with that.

The rest of the time though, most spas just sit there with their heater and circulation pump running.  I'd imagine the specs on those are about the same (and in similarly sized tubs, probably cost within a buck or two to operate each month)

Not sure that makes sense.

[IL Parrothead]

Josh, I have to disagree with you on operating costs.  From what I've been reading on this site, and others, those spas that are not full foam insulated can cost tremendously more per month to operate.

[TubsAndCues]

Josh, I have to disagree with you on operating costs.  From what I've been reading on this site, and others, those spas that are not full foam insulated can cost tremendously more per month to operate.

You're definately right on that, but be careful.  It's not just how much foam, but also what density of foam and whether or not it's an open or closed cell foam.

The other thing that affects how energy efficient (or inefficient) a tub can be is the circ pump that runs 24/7 vs. a 2 speed pump that kicks on and off to heat and filter.  That kicking on and off causes a larger surge of energy than continuous use (like that of turning a light on and off vs. letting it run continuously).

I don't want to start a big debate, but these are why the Hot Spring lines are so energy efficient.

[Robby]

WET TEST WET TEST WET TEST.  TAKE YOUR TIME.  PLAY WITH ALL THE FEATURES.  ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS.  DO YOU NEED AIR?  YOUR IN MI, IN THE WINTER IT WILL BLOW COLD AIR.  DOES THE FI;TER HAVE A BYPASS?  DOES IT HAVE AIR VENTURI OR DOES IT NOT GIVE YOU A CHOICE.  DO YOU LIKE THE 5" JETS OR THE 3" JETS?  DO YOU FLOAT OUT OF A SEAT?  DO YOU NEED MORE FOOT JETS?  ARE YOU A SOAKER?  MAKE A LIST OF WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU. IS IT FOR THERAPY OR LIESURE?  DO HAVE BACK PROBLEMS?  DOES THE DEALER HAVE SPARE PARTS IN STOCK?  HOW LONG HAS THE DEALER BEEN IN BUSINESS.  DO YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT SPA DELIVERY FROM THE FACTORY FOR PARTS TO ARRIVE?  
REMEMBER THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE WITH THIS SPA BEYOND THE WARRANTY PERIOD AND MI IS COLD.  DON'T WANT A SPACICLE.

[Vanguard]

Okay, here's my two cents on all the pump nonsense.  This is one of the most misleading things in this industry and it drives me crazy.  The pool industry does it as well.  Some pool builders will promote how many HP they use when they build a pool.

Sure, you can get a pump that says 2.5hp.  But, does that mean Brake or continuous?  Is it a full-rated or an up-rated pump?  See, a 2.5hp Uprated pump is really a 2.0hp full-rated pump.  It just lets you say what you want.

Some pump manufacturers ask their spa manufacturer what hp they want shown on their pumps.  If the mfg says I want it to show 2.5 hp, the pump guys just put that sticker on there.


__________

As to the three pumps - Just because you have three 2.5hp pumps does not mean you have 7.5hp in your spa.  It means you have three pumps that are 2.5hp.  You don't add each pump to get a total.  Its not like the the water goes through pump one, then pump two, then pump three and the water gets accelerated by each pump.  It just doesn't work that way.

If you have had a spa with 100 mini jets and that was all, if you had 2 pumps, then most likely the mfg would split the jets and give each pump 50 jets.  If you added another pump, then you'd see the mfg split them to 33, 33, and 34.  You would feel more pressure in the second instance because you have the same horsepower coursing through fewer jets.  But, you wouldn't have more total horsepower.

I have sat in many spas.  I have sat in spas that claimed to have 7hp pumps.  They felt weaker than some that said they had 2hp pumps.  

_____________________

As to some of these higher horsepower claims - I worked at one time for a commercial pool equipment manufacturer.  We made commercial swimming pool pumps.  It is not uncommon for a 100,000 gallon commercial pool to have two to three 3hp pumps.  I can tell you that the water moves really fast in that situation.

Here's an example of a a 5hp and 3hp pump:  A 5hp pump needs to have a 6" suction line and a 4" discharge line.  I have never seen a spa with that size of plumbing.  A typical 3hp pump requires at least a 2 1/2" suction line.  Again, you don't see that in spas.

_______________________

What matters is how you personally like the feel of the spa.  Don't get sucked in by how many horsepower the literature says the spa has.  If you like the seating and the pressure of the jets, that's all that matters.

[In Canada eh]

Okay, here's my two cents on all the pump nonsense.  This is one of the most misleading things in this industry and it drives me crazy.  

I have sat in many spas.  I have sat in spas that claimed to have 7hp pumps.  They felt weaker than some that said they had 2hp pumps.  

I will add my two cents to this also.  The HP thing also drives me crazy.  Who cares how many HP a motor is brake or peak,its all about the pump not the motor.  Gallons per Minute are the only true way to measure the performance of a pump.  Horsepower is a measurement of the motor not the pump.

                                            There, I have vented and now I feel better

[Josh]

Josh,

I would say maybe.  I personally like less light as I enjoy the stars.  I am not sure how the HEET runs... but I know when I am in my Vista alone I only need one pump going.. for which ever seat I am sitting in... when the tub is full... I have both pumps on...and my friends ask me to turn the power down as it is too intense... but again... I don't have many 6'4 giants in my tub    I have no complaints with my tub.  I looked at the LA spas sight...and the HEET is a very nice looking tub.. with a lot of jets.. I am sure with that being said its a good thing you have the extra pump.  
Either way... I don't think any of us can really go wrong... with the tubs that are mentioned on this sight... they all have different features...its all in what the individual is looking for.

I live in Seattle, so the stars don't appear as often as they may in cities with clearer skies.  During the summer they're out a lot....but I don't tend to be in the hot tub.  There are those wonderful winter nights where it's freezing cold and clear....and for those nights, I imagine I will have the lights off too.

Other times (such as party nights)....I can see turning them on and setting off a light show to rival my Christmas tree.  Something like 120 lights in this tub I've got, it's going to be crazy cool.

I don't think a lot of people are probably into that....and that's probably why it was an optional feature.   Even the salesperson said "Are you sure you want that many?".  

As far as the pumps go....I think you're right...I'll generally only use one or two, but I like the idea that when I have company over, we can turn all the seats up all the way and no one has to sit in the "weak seat".  That's the one thing I really liked about this tub compared to others.  I'm sure that won't matter a lot of the time either (since it's usually just me and one or two people)

Overall...to use a car analogy, I ended up buying one with sports car performance....even though I'll probably be doing mostly city driving (a Civic would have been fine).  


It should be noted that while I am very happy with my choice in purchase....I wouldn't recommend AGAINST any brand of tub that I tested.  While there were a few that weren't right for me (because of my height or the fact that I wanted to the option to have jets that felt like a firehose when turned up all the way).....there wasn't one that I got into and said "This is just lame in general".

I can tell people the best things about any tub I tested.   I've said a lot about the LA Spas....but I also had a lot of favorable things to say about brands like Hot Springs, Phoenix, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Arctic and a few others that aren't popping into mind.

One thing I didn't find during my search was a hot tub that sucked so bad I wanted to warn people not to buy it.  I'm sure they're out there.....but none of them were in the list of big brands I checked out.

[MarKee]

I would definitely try out the Epic at your Marquis dealer in town.

[JeffB]

I live in Rockford and have bought 2 spas in Grand Rapids, both form Dave at Waterland Spas. Waterland is now part of Zagers, but Dave still works there. He comes from a repair/service background and is very knowlegable. I bought an Artesian Island Captiva in 2006 (a 2005 model) from Waterland, and it has been great. One nonmovable jet broke and Zagers fixed it under warranty no questions asked. Zagers carries Vita and Reflections and D1 at its other locations. And Dave can still order Artesians. Obviously, don't buy a spa if you don't like it, but if you like what Zagers carries, I don't believe you need to worry about the dealer. As far as other dealers, you have obviously been to Pools Plus. I have never bought from them, but they have been a dealer in Grand Rapids for along time. The Marquis dealer I believe is now located in Lowell. Currently, I do not believe there is a Sundance dealer in Grand Rapids. Emeralds are intriguing because they are built in Grand Rapids (I visited the factory the first time I was buying about 8 years ago), but the dealer will not fill any tub other than the one they have water in, as you found out. Plus, I found the jets to be of poor quality compared to other brands. Blue Water Spas used to carry Jacuzzi, but I do not know what has happened to them. Good luck shopping!

[Doobiewah]

There are a lot of good tubs out there.  From research on this board, we Wet Tested to death (going back again to our final choices), checked out quality, energy efficiency and warranty, then made our decision to go with an HS Vanguard based upon the quality of the DEALER (amongst other things, of course .  Other tubs had quality features, too.  Other dealers, in our area, did NOT.  Our dealer was the final deciding factor, as we plan on having this tub for a long time and did not want any grief in case we needed service (either in or out of warranty).

Good luck in your search, and may this forum, and The Force, guide you!

The Doob, former Jedi apprentice.