new here- leaning towards the HS Vanguard.

[lincolnpark]

Hi, My husband and I recently decided to start looking at spas.  We started at Watkins looking at Caldera, moved on to Emerald because they were less expensive and locally made (Grand Rapids).  Finally we looked at the HotSpring Vanguard.  We have not wet-tested any yet. (We were very disappointed that the Emerald model we were interested in could not be wet-tested and that bothered me a LOT- I can't see making a purchase without wet-testing the model we are interested in).

So.  Here we are.  Here are some of my questions:

1) what considerations are there to making a purchase/install in winter weather (it is already winter for all intents and purposes here in MI)?

2)  I am very concerned about, how do I say this tactfully, having the spa placed nicely on our property without it looking 'plopped down'.  Due to the location we have chosen for various reasons, the tub would be visible from the street.  Obviously we will be looking at privacy screens but I have been disappointed in the durability of what we've seen.  We get a strong west wind and I think those pre-made screens look like they will blow right over.  To go into more detail, the obvious choice for our tub is a concrete patio that is on the side of our home adjacent to the walk-out basement slider.  We do not wish to place the tub in the backyard for reasons I don't want to go into right now.  



3)  Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands.  I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?

4) The dealer is offering us a small discount (300) off of a floor model Vanguard.  He said it has never had water in it and that it's been on the floor 3 weeks.  Should we consider this or should we insist on a brand new one?

5) What other spas should we look at in that price range?

Looking forward to learning more from her!
Jen

[TheSpaExpert]

The Vanguard is an excellent spa.  President George W Bush has one at his house!

1)  Winter is a great time to own a spa.  Alsok dealers are willing to offer their lowest prices of the year in order to move out the old spas

2)  Hot springs are built for a lifetime of r3elaxation.  Lifetime means that it is built to look nice for a long, long time.  Perhaps a lifetime if someone doesn't live for too long.
You can put a surround around the spa.  It is make of redwood and surrounds the spa to give it more of a built in look.

30 NEVER  BUY A SPA FROM SOMEONE THAT WON'T NOT ALLOW WETTESTING!!!~
They are trying to hide there spas inadeqeacies.

4) All Hot springs spas are filled at the factory for testing.  He probally means that it hasn't been filled since.  $300 is a fair discount.  It will work just as fine as a new one.

5) Sundance, Marquee, Jacuuzi, Dementian 1, Coleman, Artic, Artesian, Beachco0omber, and  Softub make good spas.

[96SC]

[

3)  Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands.  I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?

Welcome to the forum.
I can speak on item 3 as we purchased a Vanguard this summer.  The spa does not have jets that strictly emit air.  The jets will mix water and air (you can adjust the amount of air you want with most of the jets).  When you wet test, and I'm sure you will, have the salesperson show you how to divert the air flow and adjust it to the amount you want.  Several of the jets have individual air diverters.
When we first sat in the corner seats with the air on full blast for the back and shoulders it blew us out of the seats so don't get hung up on the number of jets.  Remember quality not quantity.
 

[hottubdan]

The Vanguard is an excellent spa.  President George W Bush has one at his house!

Is that an endorsement?

[Richs100]

Is that an endorsement?

I think I would rather give that "Consumers Digest Award" a second look.  

[IL Parrothead]

Once you wet test, you'll know not to get hung up on the number of jets.  What matters most is that the jets that are there work well, and equally as important -- offer different types of therapy/sensation per seat.  I've wet tested several tubs -- still haven't purchased -- and can tell you that HS ranks up there (in my opinion and my wife's) among the top.  I agree with the "don't purchase if you can't wet test" theory.  I also agree on whom to trust -- HS, Caldera, Marquis, D1, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Artesian...I'm sure I'm missing a couple.

[davecc]

I have had a Vanguard for a couple of years and am very happy with it and my dealer.
One thing you should consider is that a huge amount of spa space is taken up by the two "moto massagers" I would lve to have some other unit in place of one of them...just no need for two IMHO. That said- the unit is a breeze to maintain, water filtering is perfect- I have never ever seen ANYTHING suspended in the water ..I have had it cloud up for reasons unrelated to the spa but no unfiltered junk. Electric used is not noticable.

I would like air-jets and generally a bit more variety in the jets but overall this is a fine unit and I would not buy any other brand.

BTW..ALL spas are going to reguire expert service at some point. Unless you have great independent spa people available then you want to buy from a dealer who has been around and has a good service department.  My dealer is 30 miles away and the only Hot Springs dealer for a long distance..I was very nervous buying a $9,000 spa from someone so far away. No problem, he has sent people out for very minor issues even when I told him I would do the job myself..never a question and the 3 times I have needed some help the sap guy always ran extra tests and replaced minor parts that functioned but had been upgraded since my purchase. Super service.

[Spatech_tuo]

3)  Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands.  I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?

I've been in many spas with and without air jets. Air infused into the water jets is a key feature but jets that have air alone are a do-nothing jet for me. They look fine in the showroom where their cause a lot of turbulence in the water but it’s mostly for show as far as I'm concerned.

Some may say they like them and I certainly won't argue that but in the end it’s really about what you think when you wet test them. I've gone to customer's houses MANY times when they’ve had a spa with a blower (air jets) for awhile and sooo many times while I'm there they ask with a puzzled look "what are those jets supposed to do for me".

[Josh]

2)  I am very concerned about, how do I say this tactfully, having the spa placed nicely on our property without it looking 'plopped down'.

3)  Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands.  I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?

4) The dealer is offering us a small discount (300) off of a floor model Vanguard.  He said it has never had water in it and that it's been on the floor 3 weeks.  Should we consider this or should we insist on a brand new one?

5) What other spas should we look at in that price range?

A few of my answers:

2)  I'm actually in the exact same situation.  My tub is visible to one set of neighbors and will be visible to my new neighbors, should the vacant lot next door be developed upon.  What the previous owner did was build a deck around the hot tub and put up lattice walls so that no one can see in.  What I've done on top of that is allow a few trees and bushes to grow taller than they should for added privacy.  If a Gazebo is a bit expensive right now, consider buying some pre-fab lattice panels at Home Depot and putting up a little fence around the tub to tide you over.  You should be able to build a fence for less than a couple of hundred (you'll probably only need 3 fence poles and two or three sheets of lattice.

3)  I tested a couple of Hot Springs tubs, and liked a few things about them. I loved their flat back massager seats.  Ultimately, I went another way because of a few things.  Their tubs were a little short for me for one.  I was also unimpressed by their jets compared to those of several other tubs I tested. It's not the number of jets themselves (I think they were all in the right places)....but I found there to be a lack of pressure compared to tubs that were priced quite a bit less.  I think that's due to the horsepower in their motors (the one I eventually bought had over 3 times as much).

Also...I like the air jets. The tub I finally settled on had a ton of them (in addition to water jets) and it's a nice bonus. My Dad's tub had them too, and on a winter night...there's nothing like turning those things on in a really hot spa.  Especially if you turn off all the jets and JUST use the air.

That being said...I didn't really focus on the specific number of jets.  One tub I tested had over 70, and that didn't make it any more comfortable than the spas I tested with half that many.  Wet test....it's really the only way to tell what feels right to you.  Looks and specs aren't nearly as important as how it feels.

4) 300 bucks doesn't sound like much to me. What was the starting price on that tub?  It seemed to me that everywhere I went, they had "retail" prices on their flagship tubs from anywhere from 8000 up to 13,000 then they were "on sale" for as low as 9 or 10.   When I told each dealership I wasn't buying the tub there, suddenly....they found one they could sell me for hundreds or even thousands less.   The whole process was funny that way.  Hot Springs had a floor model for me for a lot less than their best price the week before.  Arctic blew me out of the water by offering me a tub for 4000 less than anything they had in their showroom only two days earlier.  Phoenix (the lowest priced spa I looked at) started out low, but even they were willing to go down more than 300 bucks.

The main thing to remember with any negotiation like this is that you have to be willing to walk away (and not come back).  Often times, when you rule a dealer out...you'll find that they come up with all sorts of deals.  If they don't, and you have other options....just cross them off and move on.  If you MUST have that tub and you let them know that...just be prepared to pay a little more than you would if you could take or leave it.   I think if you wet test all the brands you can find in your area....you'll find you have a lot of options, and you'll really be able to be price choosey at that point.

5) Some other models I recommend you check out:  Jacuzzi 470.  It's a very similar layout to the Vanguard, but I thought it was better.  It was in my top 3, but ultimately I didn't choose it because I wanted a lounger model (and Jacuzzi's 480 was too short for me)

Sundance was good too. I tested the Cameo, and I really liked that one a lot.  They have a model called Majesta that is a lot like the Vanguard.  Their spas have a lot of bells and whistles available which was neat.  I sat in that one dry, but did not wet test.  

Last but not least, if there's one in your area, check out LA Spas.  They have a model similar to the Vanguard called the Concord, and I thought the performance was better than anything I tried.  Ultimately for me, it came down to the Concord or a similar model called the HEET with the lounger. I tested over a dozen tubs and that's the one I eventually picked.  It's being built as we speak.

Whatever you choose, welcome to these boards!  I just got done searching extensively for a tub myself, and had many of the same questions you did.  I found a lot of people here to be very helpful.....but the most important thing you can do is Wet Test.  No matter what brand someone recommends or why.....nothing they can say will equal your own experience sitting in the tubs and finding out what's right for you.

[Spatech_tuo]

 I think that's due to the horsepower in their motors (the one I eventually bought had over 3 times as much).

3x the horsepower??

Are you comparing a continuous horsepower rating of one spas with a continuous horsepower rating of another or did your dealer/manufacturer give you a spec sheet that rated the pump in BHP, brake horsepower (aka starting Hp) which some use in a sly way to make it seem they are using "bigger" pumps?

For instance, if you go to the Hot Spring website and look at a Grande you'll see it rated both ways to show the difference and help if comparing to a manufacturer that only uses the BHP rating On that spa it has two pumps rated 2.5 Continuous HP (or 4.8 BHP) and 2.0 Continuous HP (or 3.9 BHP). Whenever you are quoted horsepower you always want to know if they're trying to slip in the BHP rating.

[AstaLaVista]

3x the horsepower??

Are you comparing a continuous horsepower rating of one spas with a continuous horsepower rating of another or did your dealer/manufacturer give you a spec sheet that rated the pump in BHP, brake horsepower (aka starting Hp) which some use in a sly way to make it seem they are using "bigger" pumps?

Yeah, I just looked on the LA spa web site.. the Heet actually has the same horse power as the Vista here is the cut and paste discription:

2-3     5 MBHP / 2.5 HP cont. each

[Spatech_tuo]

5 MBHP / 2.5 HP cont. each

Very good, they are showing it both ways. Hopefully the salesperson would quote both or if only one way would quote the continuous but ...

[AstaLaVista]

Very good, they are showing it both ways. Hopefully the salesperson would quote both or if only one way would quote the continuous but ...

that would be the ulitimate flim flam right??  

[Spiderman]

3)  Upon looking at HS I immediately noticed that they offered fewer jets compared to equivalently priced models from other brands.  I came to the conclusion that this is because they don't have air jets- is this a correct assumption?

4) The dealer is offering us a small discount (300) off of a floor model Vanguard.  He said it has never had water in it and that it's been on the floor 3 weeks.  Should we consider this or should we insist on a brand new one?

5) What other spas should we look at in that price range?

Looking forward to learning more from her!
Jen

Welcome to the Forum!  You will find some great info here.  Don't get caught up on the # of jets.  HotSpring offers a variety of jets and once you wet test, you will find out what feels good and what doesn't.  100 mini jets is good for "jet count", but how do they feel and is there enough pump to provide a good massage?  The moto massage jets in the Vanguard count as 1 jet, but feels like 8.  

$300 is $300.  The floor model still has the 5 year warranty which starts the day it's delivered to your house.  If you want a brand new one you'll have to wait until HotSpring starts up production in January, unless your dealer has one in the warehouse.

Other spas to look at..... look at what you can, wet test them and then make your decision.  Find a dealer you like and can trust. Remember, you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get.  

[Spatech_tuo]

that would be the ulitimate flim flam right??  

Believe it or not some will say whatever it takes to sell, especially if it’s not really a lie but just a convenient spin on reality. I also love the one where the manufacturer will have a single jet with maybe 8 ports and they will count that as 8 jets in their jet count.

This site is good at helping people understand a few of the curves out there and to realize wet testing and quality are far more important than jet counts and horsepower.