How do you know...

[Cyn]

When users comment that they use less dichlor with N-2 and/or their ozonator, I always have wondered how they know to use less?  I have weeks where I am unable to use my tub for several days.  I will do my weekly treatment on say, Monday, and that might include shocking with dichlor or MPS since I try to rotate that.  Come Friday, I open up the tub to clear, sparkling water (I have both the cartridge and ozonator) and I use it without putting in a small dose of dichlor as so many on this forum state they do after several days of non-use.  First of all, a small dose of dichlor just before I get in does what, exactly?  Is it just an assumption that it will kill some things for you fast?  And how is what I am doing different from those that are putting in MPS after each soak and actually not sanitizing for a full week until they do their once a week shock with dichlor?  

Are people judging their usage of dichlor based on the water staying clear??  I understand the dichlor after each soak and that someone has come up with a 3ppm at 10-20 minutes after adding (or some try for 5ppm), but how did they come up with it??  Water staying clear?  No rash, LOL?  I am not trying to be obnoxious, honest, but with all the recent talk about the worst nasties showing up in clear water and users getting rashes, I wonder how all the subjective judgements came about and made for the 'rules'?  Did someone just see how long they could go with the N-2 and ozone before the water got cloudy or turned green?  And did they have a length of time that it would turn bad before the N-2 and ozone?  Or is it the length of time that the dichlor keeps giving a FC value of some sort?  

My water is at the 6 week mark after it was changed and I have yet to register a CC value.  At first I thought I would not shock, if I didn't get the CC value and then at the 2 week mark, I got nervous about killing the worst nasties...once again, CC isn't a measure of rash causing nasties anyway, so was I correct to assume you need to do a dichlor shock weekly (and how do we know weekly?) or every 2 weeks with MPS as the alternative (but MPS doesn't kill nasties so why use it if you don't have a CC value?)??  

I am not sure if I am making my questions clear...sorry!!  But I am puzzled with the idea that this, as a user put on this forum once, is not nuclear science and over managing is not good, etc., and I am not over managing my water, but am I missing something as to actually knowing when my water is clear of nasties, both big and small?

Thanks so much in advance for reading this long thing!!  

[tony]

When users comment that they use less dichlor with N-2 and/or their ozonator, I always have wondered how they know to use less?  I have weeks where I am unable to use my tub for several days.  I will do my weekly treatment on say, Monday, and that might include shocking with dichlor or MPS since I try to rotate that.  Come Friday, I open up the tub to clear, sparkling water (I have both the cartridge and ozonator) and I use it without putting in a small dose of dichlor as so many on this forum state they do after several days of non-use.  First of all, a small dose of dichlor just before I get in does what, exactly?  Is it just an assumption that it will kill some things for you fast?  And how is what I am doing different from those that are putting in MPS after each soak and actually not sanitizing for a full week until they do their once a week shock with dichlor?  

Are people judging their usage of dichlor based on the water staying clear??  I understand the dichlor after each soak and that someone has come up with a 3ppm at 10-20 minutes after adding (or some try for 5ppm), but how did they come up with it??  Water staying clear?  No rash, LOL?  I am not trying to be obnoxious, honest, but with all the recent talk about the worst nasties showing up in clear water and users getting rashes, I wonder how all the subjective judgements came about and made for the 'rules'?  Did someone just see how long they could go with the N-2 and ozone before the water got cloudy or turned green?  And did they have a length of time that it would turn bad before the N-2 and ozone?  Or is it the length of time that the dichlor keeps giving a FC value of some sort?  

My water is at the 6 week mark after it was changed and I have yet to register a CC value.  At first I thought I would not shock, if I didn't get the CC value and then at the 2 week mark, I got nervous about killing the worst nasties...once again, CC isn't a measure of rash causing nasties anyway, so was I correct to assume you need to do a dichlor shock weekly (and how do we know weekly?) or every 2 weeks with MPS as the alternative (but MPS doesn't kill nasties so why use it if you don't have a CC value?)??  

I am not sure if I am making my questions clear...sorry!!  But I am puzzled with the idea that this, as a user put on this forum once, is not nuclear science and over managing is not good, etc., and I am not over managing my water, but am I missing something as to actually knowing when my water is clear of nasties, both big and small?

Thanks so much in advance for reading this long thing!!  

As a follower of the Vermonter method of sanitizing a spa, I don't believe that N2 and/or ozone allow you to use less chlorine when you soak.  Vermonters method has you dose to a level known to kill germs and bacteria including the psuedomona bacteria whether you use silver and ozone or not.  Where I believe you save on chemicals is between uses.  Average spa use for most owners is one to two people two to three times per week.  N2 and ozone will allow you, IMO, to go longer between soaks before the need to add more chlorine.  I feel that daily soakers get very little value from N2 because chlorine is added on a regular basis.

The 3-5 ppm not arbitrary but is the standard used for pools and spas for a safe swimming environment.  As a microbiologist, Vermonter used his own HotSpring Grandee as a test spa and measured the amounts and types of germs in the water after various uses and doses to come up with his routine.  This is why it has credibility and has taken on a life of its own.

In my own spa, I have tried chlorine, ozone, silver and MPS in almost every concievable way in the last five plus years.  I have tried N2 with MPS before soaking and a chlorine shock weekly with very bad results.  Others do it successfully.  I always go back to Vermonter's method, though, because I know I have a safe spa.  I don't feel that way with some of the other methods.

I have tried different ways to shock..and they all work well.  It is my belief that MPS works well if you shock weekly and not wait until you register combined chlorine.  It is not necessary to shock with chlorine until your CC reaches .2 ppm which may be in a few days or maybe a month.  There are good reasons for using each way.  You just have to decide which works best for you.  

[Cyn]

Thanks, Tony!!  Now I can get more specific    You said, "N2 and ozone will allow you, IMO to go longer between soaks before the need to add more chlorine."  What would tell you there is a need??  Cloudy water?  You also mention 'very bad results' with N2 and MPS before soaking and chlorine shock weekly.  Once again...what exactly was the bad result...cloudy water?

And, lastly, you mention MPS works well if you shock weekly and not wait to register CC...but MPS doesn't get rid of nasties, only oxidises the excess junk in the water which really is CC, isn't it?  And CC is not a read for nasties...just used chlorine so you can keep your water clear, but what about the germs?
Thanks!

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Since your attempting to get technical here........... define "nasties".

I don't think your talking about my down-hill neighbor (and SHE qualifies as a nastie for sure).

[Cyn]

Since your attempting to get technical here........... define "nasties".

I don't think your talking about my down-hill neighbor (and SHE qualifies as a nastie for sure).

LOL  

My nasties are germs, not the stuff that needs oxidizing.

[Cyn]

To be really correct, I guess I should add bacteria to the germs definition.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

When you add chlorine to the water you want to test for it 20 minutes later. This is when you'll get your relevant reading.  Why? it takes up to 20 minutes for chlorine to oxidize organic matter and kill 99.9999% of "nasties".

The KEY here, is HOW MUCH chlorine will it take to get your desired reading 20 minutes after adding it. The more organic debris that needs to be oxidized and the more nasties that need to be killed, the more chlorine will be needed. IF, Nature2 reduces the amount of chlorine needed to reach this level, it's helping, and you need to use less chlorine.

Adding chlorine before you get in adds a level of protection as it will kill (some) of the "nasties" as they float off your body. This will prevent them from starting to multiply, and hopefully kill them before they swim over to your friend sitting across from you.

Water that is clear, is not necessarily "safe". Live bacteria that can harm you, doesn't necessarily cloud the water.

CC = combined chlorine. This is the chemical chlorine, combining with another chemical. Usually it's ammonia. Not everyone experiences this happening (I don't). Combined chlorine is removed/destroyed by oxidizing. An effectively operating ozonator "can" take care of the necessary oxidizing of this.

[tonyp]

I have tried N2 with MPS before soaking and a chlorine shock weekly with very bad results.  Others do it successfully.  

This is the method that I have used for over 3 years without any problems.  Ozone and N2 with weekly dichlor shock and MPS before each use.  The only time I had even a concern was when I forgot to pre-filter my water on filling.  Water was fine but filters needed cleaning more often.  I am convinced that the reason everybody gets using the same methods is that we forget the the #1 ingredient in the mix is water and it is the most variable of all.

BTW except after I shock - my chlorine reading is 0.

[tony]

Thanks, Tony!!  Now I can get more specific    You said, "N2 and ozone will allow you, IMO to go longer between soaks before the need to add more chlorine."  What would tell you there is a need??  Cloudy water?  You also mention 'very bad results' with N2 and MPS before soaking and chlorine shock weekly.  Once again...what exactly was the bad result...cloudy water?

And, lastly, you mention MPS works well if you shock weekly and not wait to register CC...but MPS doesn't get rid of nasties, only oxidises the excess junk in the water which really is CC, isn't it?  And CC is not a read for nasties...just used chlorine so you can keep your water clear, but what about the germs?
Thanks!

For me there are two things that indicate my water is turning or has turned...cloudy water or slight odor.  My nose will usually tell me before the water turns, but if it is left unchecked and I don't catch it cloudy water results and the cure is a good chlorine dose and filtration.

When I tried the N2/MPS way of sanitizing as instructed by the N2 site, I could go maybe two days before cloudy water.  I even tried shocking with chlorine midweek (thats twice in one week) with the same results.  As a result, I don't feel warm and fuzzy with this routine.

As far as shocking goes...both MPS and breakpoint chlorination methods of shock's purpose is to oxidize organics and prevent or eliminate chloramines (CC).  An added advantage of breakpoint chlorination is a superchlorination.  This is not necessarily needed if you sanitize correctly.  Reaching the 3-5 ppm free chlorine level during regular dosing will take care of all the germs.  As a precaution, I try to get close to 5 ppm once per week and stay close to three ppm the rest of the time.  This allows me to always be able to use the spa.

[AstaLaVista]

As far as shocking goes...both MPS and breakpoint chlorination methods of shock's purpose is to oxidize organics and prevent or eliminate chloramines (CC).  An added advantage of breakpoint chlorination is a superchlorination.  This is not necessarily needed if you sanitize correctly.  Reaching the 3-5 ppm free chlorine level during regular dosing will take care of all the germs.  As a precaution, I try to get close to 5 ppm once per week and stay close to three ppm the rest of the time.  This allows me to always be able to use the spa.

I had no problem with this method with my Tiger River Bengal.. I always had a ppm between 3-5.. even if I left the water for a day.  However with my Vista.. I can have over 5ppm (almost 10ppm) at night and by morning... i have barely a reading..or no reading at all.. is this normal?? I was told that the ozonater in the Vista is strong and burns off the dichlor so that you can't keep FAC for very long. :-/

[Vinny]

I want to add to this. I have tried N2 and spa frog, 24/7 ozone and now the spa frog with 24/7 ozone.

As Doc said that clear water isn't neccessarily clean water.  I have experimented with my tub various ways but not at all to the extent that Vermonter has, what I found is...

My tub will go from clear to cloudy in about 2 1/2 days after dosing using ozone only for 8 hours a day. It will go 3 1/2 days after dosing with either the spa frog or N2 or ozone running 24/7. I currently have my tub using a spa frog and ozone on 24/7; my first test gave me about 3 1/2 days again but my ozonator may be on it's way out.

I know people have been successful with using N2 and ozone but at this point it doesn't work that well for me. I will say that I have a bad nose so I can't smell the tub so my knowlwdge came from opening the tub to see that everything is OK on a daily basis and looking at the water. Something that I remember about the water is that it took on a different apperance just before it turned. I can't put my finger on what it was just that it looked different.

Personally I can't use less dichlor or stretch the days between doses. I have been caught quite a few times with bad water because the days got away from me and the water is now cloudy. The firest time was s surprise as I was building my deck and couldn't get to my tub but based on what I read here at the time I thought I could go 5 days r so and all I had to do is shock the clear tub ... boy was I surprised to see the mess it was - YUK!!!

I can shock the tub to over 10 PPM, turn on the ozonator 24/7, lower the heat and get a week of clear water when on vacation but not on a regular dose.

[kokanee001]

I sometimes struggle with my water, too, although I try not to get too wound up over it. However, it seems from the posts here that the Vermonter's method is a good one. Could someone explain the method or provide a link. Thanx.

[Chad]

I sometimes struggle with my water, too, although I try not to get too wound up over it. However, it seems from the posts here that the Vermonter's method is a good one. Could someone explain the method or provide a link. Thanx.

http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm

[Cyn]

Thanks everyone...I actually think I get it...well, maybe.  I have been so surprised that my water has remained looking and smelling good for days without my treating it that I began to wonder if I was missing something and if there was a sign other than cloudy/smelly water that I was unaware of.  Then some of the most recent posts about a tub rash with users that thought they were doing everything right kind of got me worried.  I also think that some posters interchange the words shocking and super-chlorination.  I knew that MPS did not kill 'nasties' but there were times when someone would say that a user should shock a tub (leaving 'with dichlor' out) and what they really mean is super-chlorination.  

Thanks again!!

[Vinny]

Just to make sure that you are 100% OK what is being said ...

Shocking can be done with either MPS and dichlor - the idea is to burn off the combined chlorine (CC) and organics that may be in your tub. The shocking value for CC using dichlor is whatever the CC reading is multiply by 10 and add that much free chlorine (FC) (if CC= 0.6 PPM then add 6 PPM FC. The only problem with this method is that you may not be able to use the tub but by doing this you are using more chlorine to help kill anything that might not have been killed by a normal dose. Honestly I have used the tub with a high chlorine reading without any ill effects.

Using MPS burns up the CC with the benefit of being able to use the tub 15 minutes after adding but if it has been a while since adding chlorine (a while being whatever to you) then I will also add chlorine after the MPS has been in the water for at least 15 minutes. I do this so the water is theroretically at 0 CC and it is being traeted with chlorine.

Superchlorination can be done at any time ... my idea is a little different than the definition. I "superchlorinate" just to do it every so often. If my normal dose is 3 PPM, I may add another teaspoon in just for good measure - it's not bringing the chlorine reading to 10 but it is more than normal and if something is resistant to 3 PPM then 4 1/2 to 5 PPM may do the trick. I very rarely bring the chlorine to more than 7 PPM, when 3 people use my tub (very rarely) then I throw in about 4 teaspoons which is around 6 to 7 PPM in my tub. I don't know if I need it but the extra is there "just in case". IMO adding extra dichlor every so often is a good idea.