Vetern "without a clue"... Water Chemistry

[ndabunka]

OK, I guess there comes a time when everyone get water chemistry mixed up and has to start  over.  I usually dump and refill about once every 6 months and was coming around to that time last week but unfortunately for me, we have water usage restrictions in place and I don't want to invoke the wrath of a $500 fine so here's the story...

After pretty much running in automatic for that last 3 months (Di-chlor after every use as well as a Di-chlor shock now and then (about once every 3 weeks), I started to think that the water was a "little off" so I whipped out an old liquid-based test kit and started doing some detailed analysis.  Initially it "looked" like my PH was a bit off and Alk was high.  OK, that's pretty normal but when I started treating the tub and then taking samples, things didn't really seem to be progressing as expected/normal.  I used a LOT of chems both ways (not trying to zero in like normal but rather just trying to come ANYWHERE close to the correct levels).  Seemed that EVERYTHING I did simply resulted in higher Alk.  OK, so I decide to "bite the bullet" and do a 50% drain and refill (slowly n the middle of hte night kinda thing, LOL).  Seemed to work fine but now my water was even WORSE than before.  Now I can get move the PH and ALK with chems butt he Chlorine levels (both free and total) remain OFF the charts.  I did discover that part of the problem was the liquid test kit.  Apparently some of the chems MUST have been really out of date because their results do NOT agree with what I am now getting on the test strips (I finally broke down over the weekend and went and got some).  I've "almost" got both PH and ALK back to where they belong but the Chlorine levels STILL (after 4 days) seem to be OFF the CHARTS and the water doesn't smell right (still).   I have no method of measuring TDS as my liquid test kit is NOT a Taylor but rather another $24.00 one (that seems to be expired anyway).  I'm not willing to pay the local Rec Warehouse the $79 they want for the Taylor Kit and I don't feel "comfortable" leaving the water in there until I can order one online.  So, what do I do next?  Just dump the ENTIRE water and start over?  No $80 Taylor kit needed and only thing is required is a "creative" way to fill the 480 gallons back up using a technique that won't cost me a $500 fine.  What would you guys do?

[tinybubbles]

A couple thoughts.  One, could the problem be with the regents in the test kit?  You mentioned it was old.  Two, do you have a small, local pool and spa store that would test your water sample for free or practically free?  Three, the water company is not going to notice 480 gallons on your water bill.  Just don't let the neighbors see.  A nice soaking bathtub can easily hold 90 gallons of water.  What if you have several kids to bathe?  Maybe you did some extra loads of wash, wink wink.  What would I do, first take a sample of water to be tested.  2nd, if needed, refill the tub.  Good luck.

[ndabunka]

A couple thoughts.  One, could the problem be with the regents in the test kit?  You mentioned it was old.  Two, do you have a small, local pool and spa store that would test your water sample for free or practically free?  Three, the water company is not going to notice 480 gallons on your water bill.  Just don't let the neighbors see.  A nice soaking bathtub can easily hold 90 gallons of water.  What if you have several kids to bathe?  Maybe you did some extra loads of wash, wink wink.  What would I do, first take a sample of water to be tested.  2nd, if needed, refill the tub.  Good luck.

Yep, re-agents are bad (at least I think so) and that is why I dropped back to the old tried and true test strip method over the weekend.  This did help as I am now better able to control things (according to the test strips) but the Chlorine levels are simply NOT coming down (and I didn't add THAT much chlorine during the flailing attempts.  However, both the strips ANY the re-agents show WAY too high chlorine levels

[Cyn]

You go a full 6 months before a water change?  And you usually spend the 6 months not testing the water for pH, alkalinity, etc., levels?  You just add dichlor after each use and shock every 3 weeks?  No MPS or other chemicals?  Do you check your FC, TC, and CC every week?  Month?  They say that the water needs changing when you have trouble getting the water balanced.  Seems that is the case and certainly at the 6 month point, I don't think adding half new water will change things.  I am new to this, but I am spewing forth all I have learned.

[ndabunka]

You go a full 6 months before a water change?  And you usually spend the 6 months not testing the water for pH, alkalinity, etc., levels?  You just add dichlor after each use and shock every 3 weeks?  No MPS or other chemicals?  Do you check your FC, TC, and CC every week?  Month?  They say that the water needs changing when you have trouble getting the water balanced.  Seems that is the case and certainly at the 6 month point, I don't think adding half new water will change things.  I am new to this, but I am spewing forth all I have learned.

Actually, yes I do typically go six month without the NEED for a water change.  As far as testing.  I typically test via either test strips or by using the liquid-based kit about once every two weeks or so (as needed).  I've been doing this a while and can usually tell pretty easily if something is even a "little" off so as you get more and more use to it, you will realize that you don't really have to "baby sit" the tub every night (not saying that you do but many new tub owners do tend to get a little obsessed with the process which can really be very, very simple).

As you stated, when it gets hard to balance, it usually means that you TDS are high.    That is why I dumped 50% of the water over the weekend trying to get it back under control.  This is a pretty standard process a number of us have used in the past and the only reason I didn't dump it all is because of the water restrictions.  Believe it or not the county is monitoring the use of individual homes and sending trucks to anyones home that may appear to be using excess water.  I've seen them respond as fast as 30 minutes in one case and was glad to hear they finally caught them.  People in this community seem to think they are above the law and quite a few were watering their lawns either in the middle of the night or really, really early in the morning (4:30-5am).  We did here of people having their door knocked on @ that time, handed a $500 bill and told that they would be monitoring their useage daily for the next month so not to try it again unless they wanted their water turned off COMPLETELY for the violation (Apparently Atlanta was getting away with cutting off abusers water and charging them something like $2K if they wanted or needed it turned right back on quickly).

Latest update... Used more than enough PH down to bring down both the PH and the ALK but as soon as I added even a "little" PH up (sodium CARBONATE, not the bi-carbonate), the ALK Shoots straight back up again and the PH levels STILL are low.  Looks like my ONLY option may be a complete drain.  Argh!

[sonofsail]

Based on what you have said, you could have a high cyanuric acid (CYA) level.  This chlorine stabilizer is in in dichlor.  If you use dichlor regularly and shock with dichlor, the CYA will build up.  Nothing can reduce the level except replacing the water.  A high CYA level can through off chlorine readings.  I know a lot of folks on this forum recommend not micromanaging the water chemistry and they are right.  But you do have to keep up with it with a reliable testing method (preferrably Taylor 2005) on a regular basis.  Dump and fill (at 3 AM if necessary).

[sonofsail]

I just saw your previous post.  Maybe fill over a 2-3 day period.  
Sorry about the typos.

[ndabunka]

Sonofsail - Yep, I think you are right.  I tried to do a little MPS to "hopefully" oxidize the free chlorine but it didn't appear to have any effect.  I've got the PH level's at least "close" to where they should be @ 7.1 so I may try to get one last soak in before flushing it all out again.  At least the water "seems" normal again (clear and no odor) but this is the first time I've had such high chlorine levels.  It appears that the old/bad/expired re-agents contributed somewhat to this dilema.  Oh well, maybe one last soak before draining.  At least it's suppose to be in the 70's tomorrow so it appears I will have a beautiful day to do it.

[tony]

Based on what you have said, you could have a high cyanuric acid (CYA) level.  This chlorine stabilizer is in in dichlor.  If you use dichlor regularly and shock with dichlor, the CYA will build up.  Nothing can reduce the level except replacing the water.  A high CYA level can through off chlorine readings.  I know a lot of folks on this forum recommend not micromanaging the water chemistry and they are right.  But you do have to keep up with it with a reliable testing method (preferrably Taylor 2005) on a regular basis.  Dump and fill (at 3 AM if necessary).

I agree.  The best thing to do is dump and fill.  Its time anyway.  Yes, use of dichlor will build up CYA levels and of course CYA is an acid.  CYA, however, will not throw off your chlorine readings.  It will affect the sanitizing ability of those readings.  For instance if one teaspoon of dichlor will raise your free chlorine level 2 ppm, it will do this no matter if the CYA level is 20 or 100.  The kill rate of that 2ppm will be greater at 20 than at 100.  This is probably the downside of using a stabilized chlorine...you show a good free chlorine level but the sanitizing is less.  To get equivalent sanitizing, you need a higher free chlorine level.

Sonofsail, if this is what you said, I apologize.  I thought I would just clarify a little.

[sonofsail]

Tony, you are absolutely right.  Sorry if my info was a little off about the chlorine levels when testing.  The chlorine that is there (and will show up upon testing) is bound up by the CYA and won't kill the bugs.  Thanks for clarifying.

[ndabunka]

I just thought I'd give everybody an update on my efforts.  The water is back in balance.   No tub drain or refill.  Just careful adjustments (baby steps) on the balance issues.  One thing I CAN say for certain it that this recent effort has added FAR, FAR more chemicals to my water than I have EVER put in there before so if TDS levels weren't high before they almost HAVE to be now.  Now that it is back in balance (and staying there) I am going to take a sample to the local Spa shop (they sell DimOnes) and see what the TDS's are as I have no way to do that myself.  If they say they are high then I will dump the water even though it is now under control.  BTW - What is a high vs. acceptable level of TDS in a 480 gallon tub?  Never could measure it so I never captured that aspect of water balance.  I think it's ppm so I guess tub size doesn't matter, only the ppm does, right?

[tony]

I just thought I'd give everybody an update on my efforts.  The water is back in balance.   No tub drain or refill.  Just careful adjustments (baby steps) on the balance issues.  One thing I CAN say for certain it that this recent effort has added FAR, FAR more chemicals to my water than I have EVER put in there before so if TDS levels weren't high before they almost HAVE to be now.  Now that it is back in balance (and staying there) I am going to take a sample to the local Spa shop (they sell DimOnes) and see what the TDS's are as I have no way to do that myself.  If they say they are high then I will dump the water even though it is now under control.  BTW - What is a high vs. acceptable level of TDS in a 480 gallon tub?  Never could measure it so I never captured that aspect of water balance.  I think it's ppm so I guess tub size doesn't matter, only the ppm does, right?

You generally should change water when TDS is 1500 ppm greater than your starting TDS.  A final measurement doesn't have a lot of merit without a starting measure...but if your water is above 2000 ppm you should probably consider a change and if above 3000 ppm...definitely.