Will PH Decreaser eat metal jets if left to sit?

[squale]

so you are saying once I get Alk into the 130ppm area, then ignore the PH for a few days, then test PH and see where it's at?  what I don't understand is that if the Alk is okay, and the PH is high, you need PH Decreaser to bring down the PH, but by doing this you also bring down the Alk.  So it seems like it's going to be a problem to get them both right?

or is it that once the Alk is right, the PH will AUTOMATICALLY find it's way into the 7.4-7.6 range WITHOUT any PH Decreaser even if it was 8+ prior to this?

[Brewman]

what's the benefit of using Muriatic acid over PH Decreaser dry acid besides that it's cheaper?

does one work better than the other?  does one have a higher tendency to corrode your metal in the tub, or do some other sort of damage, etc.?

 My tap water has very high alkalinity.  Just to get it close enough to "tweak" I have to add somewhere between 40 to 50 ounces of dry Ph decreaser.  To me, that's an awful lot of material, when I can get the exact same result using a far less volume, liquid in this case.  Local spa dealers charge about $6 for a 20 ounce container of Ph down, so I was buying almost $20 worth just to get my alk readings in balance.
 Instead I use maybe $0.25 worth of muraitic acid.  Which is a tip I picked up on this very forum a couple years ago, by the way.    
   Neither is better or worse from a corrosion or effectiveness standpoint.  Muriatic has a stronger impact per volume, but anyone who exercises commons sense should be able to handle the stuff.  So I don't dump it straight into the water, I mix it in several quarts of spa water and gradually add that back to the spa, absolutely no problems, I still have all 10 fingers, and all 12 toes, and both my eyebrows and all my eyelashes.  
 There is no handy chart on the back of the bottle to tell me how much to use, but it's pretty easy to figure out- start out small, note the result, repeat, etc......
It does the same thing Ph decreaser dry chemical does- no better or worse.
you just need less of it.  And it is more challenging to get small adjustments, since it's pretty strong per ounce- but it's really not hard to figure out.

  I'm used to handling "dangerous" substances.  I still occasionally make copper clad PC boards for electronics projects, and the copper etchant is very corrosive.
 I melt lead to cast bullets, as well as reloading handgun ammunition with gun powder- and I've lived thru it all because I use caution and common sense.  


Ph and alkalinity are sorta lockstepped- you really can't adjust one without impacting the other.  For instance, baking soda (Alk Up) will increase alkalinity, and that's what it's for, but it can also raise Ph.  Same goes for adjusting Ph up and down- you'll somewhat impact your alk readings.  You need to figure this out by trial and error- what works for my water might not work for yours.  And don't obsess over it- close enough is good enough.    

I'd not recommend using the muriatic if you're chasing relatively small changes in your water.  Not worth the bother.  But for my situation it works like a champ.

[squale]

holy crap, what are your initial tap water alk readings?  how about your initial Ph readings?

I thought my initial alk being 240 was WAY high, and my ph at 8.7 was ridiculous for tap water.. guess I don't feel so bad anymore.

BTW.. is it bad for your skin, eyes, anything to go in your spa when the PH is high, like in the 8+ range?  or how about when the Alk is high, like in the 200ppm range?  I wonder because I don't know if people say high ph and high alk is bad for your body to be in or if it's just right.  I figure, if my tap water is that high, everytime I take a bath or shower, I am in water that is alk of 240 and ph of 8.7 and so far I am still here!

also, my water is high, my total hardness is about 320ppm or something, so if you use the 70% rule for calcium hardness, I guess my calcium hardness is about 225ppm,, but again I CAN'T test JUST calcium hardness, only TOTAL hardness.  But since I CAN'T lower my hardness I just use the stain and scale protectant chemical stuff.

[Chas]

so you are saying put the dry acid directly INTO the filter area?  like take the filter lid off the Sundance spa, and pour the dry stuff right into that area?  Sounds like that is only going to clog up the filters and then never make it's way through the rest of the water?  

If you are adding something to your spa which clogs the filters and will not dissolve in a matter of minutes, then you are adding the wrong thing. Spa Down (dry acid) should sit on the filter and then dissolve in minutes or less with the jets running.

If you pour any dry product into the center of the tub, it can damage the plastic surface. All spa makers will let you fix any damage caused by this yourself. Read your warranty.

 8-)

[squale]

what plastic surface?  the surface is acrylic and I'm sure acrylic can stand up to these chemicals..

[Steve]

I'm not sure what "plastic surface" Chas is referring to either? :-/ It's why most spas are acrylic... It takes a small atomic bomb to effect it... If acrylic can handle chlorine readings of 100+ppm when treating it for bacteria, I don't think a capful of pH reducer will do anything to adversly effect it...

I just can't agree that adding any acid based product into a filter area can be a good thing. I have never seen a pH reducer not dissolve almost instantly nor clog filters. Are we talking dept store brand stuff? :-?

I'm missing something here...

[Brewman]

holy crap, what are your initial tap water alk readings?  how about your initial Ph readings?

 My tap water alk is well over 400.  Can't remember exactly.  Ph is is around 8 maybe 7.9.  Hardness is right in the middle of the acceptable range.

I thought my initial alk being 240 was WAY high, and my ph at 8.7 was ridiculous for tap water.. guess I don't feel so bad anymore.

 

That's why you need to figure out yourself what's necessary for your water- it's all different.

BTW.. is it bad for your skin, eyes, anything to go in your spa when the PH is high, like in the 8+ range?  or how about when the Alk is high, like in the 200ppm range?  I wonder because I don't know if people say high ph and high alk is bad for your body to be in or if it's just right.  I figure, if my tap water is that high, everytime I take a bath or shower, I am in water that is alk of 240 and ph of 8.7 and so far I am still here!

You answered your own question.  You tap water is fine to bath in.  You're probably drinking, and cooking with it too, without issue.  The water in the spa should be balanced so that the sanitizer and other things work optimally.  Also, in your home, you fill you bathtub soak and dump the water in a short time.  The tub sits empty, not full of water like a spa.  The Ph, alk, hardness, etc.... ranges for a spa are guidelines- not absolute limits.  You'll drive yourself crazy constantly trying to hit a "bullseye".
Close enough is good enough.

also, my water is high, my total hardness is about 320ppm or something, so if you use the 70% rule for calcium hardness, I guess my calcium hardness is about 225ppm,, but again I CAN'T test JUST calcium hardness, only TOTAL hardness.  But since I CAN'T lower my hardness I just use the stain and scale protectant chemical stuff.

Don't know offhand what the suggested range for hardness is, since my own water is fine in that regard, so I don't pay attention to that so much, but I don't think yours is anything to get worried over.

[squale]

well now my total Alk is only 115 and my ph is still 8.0.  So what is going on here, is my water corrosive since the Alk is low, but the PH is still high?  I don't know how there can be so much of a spread between my PH and Alk?
will the PH Come down on it's own eventually in a couple days?  or will the Alk try to make it's way back up?

[Steve]

Your alk is fine. The range is 80-120ppm.

The way to lower pH without effecting alk is to add small doses of pH decreaser over a couple/few of days. Don't micro manage the water and give it time to settle.

Steve

[Gomboman]

Wow, I've always added my ph down products (dry acid) directly into the filter compartment. This is what the Hotspring manual recommends. I've never diluted my dry acid.

Never thought about acidic water damaging the pumps/heater etc. Should this be a concern? Perhaps the HS components are built for this kind of abuse?

[Steve]

Wow, I've always added my ph down products (dry acid) directly into the filter compartment. This is what the Hotspring manual recommends. I've never diluted my dry acid.

Never thought about acidic water damaging the pumps/heater etc. Should this be a concern? Perhaps the HS components are built for this kind of abuse?

In all my years, I've never heard of doing that for the obvious reasons. Chas certainly recommended otherwise so I'm guessing it's a HS thing?  :-?

Water is water and acidic water will have the same effect on ANY brand so I can't figure out why and he hasn't responded yet to my queary. If this were a product that didn't dissolve properly then my next suggestion would be to pre-dissolve it first but I'd still add it directly to the spa with the pumps running on high. pH decreaser is a very powdery like product so a concern with it not pre-dissolving shouldn't be an issue. I just measure off the amount and throw it directly in the water... Hasn't been an issue for me or the thousands of our customers over the years...

I just can't see the benefit of adding it to the filter compartment and I'm curious to find out why HS people recommend that? Hopefully, we get clarification and I certainly don't doubt Chas as he knows his stuff. I'd just like to understand why...

We don't recommend putting chlorine or bromine pucks in the skimmer for this very same reason. Low pH products in the skimmer/filter will slowly destroy heater elements, seals, etc.

[Chas]

Wow, I've always added my ph down products (dry acid) directly into the filter compartment. This is what the Hotspring manual recommends. I've never diluted my dry acid.

Never thought about acidic water damaging the pumps/heater etc. Should this be a concern? Perhaps the HS components are built for this kind of abuse?

Yes, they are. The point is that you should have the jets on, and with that much water flowing through everything, there is no real chance for the pH to plummet or spike - at least not long enough to do any harm to seals, and those are about the only thing in the water flow which is not plastic. The heater is on its own system, of course, but the fact that the circ pump runs continuously mitigates the effects of any dry stuff: if you run the jets, most of it hits those filters and then dissolves. What little makes it onto the circ pump filter will also dissolve before going through the circ pump, but at a much slower rate and with no evil effect.

As to the questions above about Acrylic not being plastic - then what is it? I'm sorry if I used the wrong word here - is there another word for acrylic that takes it out of the category of plastics? Clue me in here please. I will be the first to admit that Endural and related thermoplastics are more prone to this damage: they will show little brown rough areas in the places where the dry acid and/or dichlor settles, and this can show up in the warranty period but is not covered. It can, however, be repaired.

Yes, putting dry acid in direct contact with an acrylic tub shell immersed in hot water can do damage. No, you will not see it right away - it may take years for blistering. fading or chemical burning to become evident. But if you are a careful observer, you will note that the very same corners where the stuff sits will be the places you will first spot this damage when it appears years down the road. As I mentioned above, even in the extreme turbulence of a running spa there are patterns of flow which can and will deposit dry material into the same spots over and over again. Talk to folks who live with sandy soil around their tubs: they will often have a bit of grit which will gather in the very same corner or spot time after time.

I'm not makin' this stuff up: if you drop dry acid right into the water with the jets off, you will have trouble. It may not show up right away, but it will.

If you drop it into the filter area and run the jets, you have a good shot at never having a bit of trouble. This is what Hot Spring recommends. Just be sure to run the jets long enough to dissolve the dry acid or dichlor off the filter. This may be five or ten minutes for most spas - longer in others.

If you want the absolute best chance of not having any trouble ever - mix any dry chems in a bucket of warm water and then put it into the skimmer with the jets on. But as was stated above, thats a pain in the ___ and most folks will not bother with it for long. I only recommended it for those who don't mind taking the time to lavish that extra care. I don't do it myself...

One more thing: if you drop Dichlor into the filter area, it is worth taking a second to wash it off the ends or caps of the filters. I do this using the skimmer lid as a paddle, that way I don't have to stick my hand into the water. It takes seconds, but it can keep the filter end caps from fading and looking bad.

 8-)

[Chas]

We don't recommend putting chlorine or bromine pucks in the skimmer for this very same reason. Low pH products in the skimmer/filter will slowly destroy heater elements, seals, etc.

Agreed - 100%

The floater in the filter compartment will put a strong concentration of whatever product you are using there. Bromine levels can climb very high in the filter area, and with the low flow of a small circ pump you can mess things up over time.

Hot Spring, and most other brands strongly discourage the use of Trichlor or chlorine tabs in any covered hot tub/spa. It is simply too aggressive, and can do damage to things which include seals, circ pumps, heaters, headrest pillows and the cover itself. It is one of the things specifically mentioned in some warranties which will do damage which is not covered.

 8-)

[Brewman]

Sundance specifically warns against using Trichlor- and promises that any damage resulting from said will be on the the consumer.